overzealous waterstone truing

Re: overzealous waterstone truing

Warren in Lancaster, Pa

>I do hundreds of sharpenings betweeen truing the waterstones. Here are some tips. You might use other stones for gouges or narrow chisels (I use oilstones, you could use the other side of the stone). These small tools are hard on the stones and tend to give grooves and hollows. If you do use the waterstones for these tools you must use the entire surface. When sharpening plane irons or wide chisels let the tool overhang the edge of the stone, alternating between edges so the edges of the stone get worn as well as the middle. You should be able to control the crosswise bellying of the stone with this technique. Use as long a stroke as you can on the stone. Eventually the stone becomes too concave in the lengthwise direction and must be trued, but it does not have to be any where near perfect for routine sharpening.

Some people flatten the stone with every sharpening. Perhaps you are not the most zealous guy on the block.

Re: overzealous waterstone truing

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>I true my stones with every use, never thought of myself being obsessive or compulsive :-)

I use Norton stones, a 1000 and an 8000. I leave them soaked in water at all times (not required or maybe even recommended with the 8000, but I haven't found any ill effects so far). Since leaving the stones in water has the (at least theoretical) possibility of distorting the stone somewhat, I flatten them before any sharpening session with DMT diamond stones (325 and 600). Takes 10-15 seconds per stone.

Once done with sharpening I put the stones back in their respective baths without truing them, since I will do that before using them again anyway.

For rough stuff, I use either a bench grinder or the Viel sander/grinder (the latter more and more), the only instance where I need to use stones for rougher stuff is when honing the back of chisels or plane blades, I used a Norton 220 for that in the past, but found out that this stone requires frequent truing within the same session otherwise one can't get flat backs, so I use my 325 diamond stone for that now.

I've never put a straightedge to my stones, the DMT diamond stones are rated to be flat enough that I don't bother checking.

DC

Re: overzealous waterstone truing

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Hi Bob

It is important that waterstones are flat. There - that must be said. But there are several ways to do this, and this is really the heart of the matter. It will be interesting to hear what others come up with. Here are a few of the things I do.

I switched from King to Shaptons because the former are quite soft stones and require more frequent flattening. I don't believe that there is any real special benefit in terms of sharpeness obtained (for the same grit). I do like the harder Shapton surface as it provides more feedback.

Do you use a guide or freehand? That will make a different. I do both - guides are used for correcting bevels or obtaining a specific microbevel, otherwise I prefer to freehand. Most guides tend to create more wear through the centre of the stone. The ability to work freehand allows you to spread the wear over the stone more evenly, which keeps them flatter, longer.

The way you freehand also makes a difference. Front-and-Back (FAB) freehanding verses Side Sharpening. I use both - it depends on the ratio of the width to the length of the bevel. Side Sharpening allows one to hone along the outer edges of the stone, and this will then create a very slight camber - which is better than creating a hollow. Work the stone both ways.

I avoid using very thin (width) or narrow (depth) blades on wayerstones as they are likely to dig into the surface. Then I move to diamond stones and finish on strops. Ditto grinding on stones - I have a King 300 but would rather not use it as it dishes quickly. I would rather use a 240 grit beltsander belt glued to glass, or a coarse diamond stone (I reserve my DMT extra coarse diamond stone for flattening the waterstones).

Recently I watched a demonstration by Harrelson Stanley (DVD) and was surprised to see just how much water and how frequently he flattening his Shaptons. He soaked his stones and flattened between them between every blade. I can't say that I do the same - my stones usually last about 4 or 5 blades (The Kings needed to be flattened between each blade). I also never flatten them after use. I clean them and let them dry. Then, just before I start out next time, I flatten them under running water. That should do me for a morning, sometimes a day.

Hope this helps.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: overzealous waterstone truing

tstock

>I'm with Denis - the coarse side of the DMT large DuoSharp is fast-cutting...my Norton 8000 takes a minute to flatten next to the kitchen sink. Once the darker yellow color is gone, the stone is flat. I get 4-5 years worth of use out of a stone before it gets thin enough to transition to carving tool duty.

Re: overzealous waterstone truing

Bob Sobieck

>You stimulate another concern I have. I do a lot of free hand sharpening but like a guide when establishing a new bevel or using a recycled thin blade (can't feel the bevel).

I have an old guide (25 years old) made of plastic of some sort that I got from woodcraft. It is heavy duty but is "elongated", i.e. the wheels stretch out far away from the blade and their angle setting dictates the bevel. The wheels however do not rest on the stone but instead the surface the the stone sits on. Good on one point, it does not wear the stone. Bad in another - I now worry about how true BOTH sides are. If the bottom is on an angle, this causes a bad reference surface relative to the wheels....argh! I find that I worry more about truing my stones than my wood. I think I resolved myself to doing most of the rough work with abrasive paper attached to one of my machine table surfaces via spray contact adhesive.

It is good to know I am not alone in this.

Bob, Green Bay, WI - did you see that Brett Favre pass last night?!!!

Re: overzealous waterstone truing

Dean J in MN

>I switched from King to Shaptons because the former are quite soft stones and require more frequent flattening. I don't believe that there is any real special benefit in terms of sharpeness obtained (for the same grit). I do like the harder Shapton surface as it provides more feedback.

Strange how different people have different experiences. I switched from King to Shaptons a while back for the same reason -- hoping to require less frequent flattening. I hate the Shaptons. True, they stay flat longer -- but are much harder to flatten when they do dish. But, that isn't the real reason I dislike them. I had far too much trouble with my blades sticking to the stones. Major suction when making the final back laps to take off the burr. Using lots of water helped a bit, but still frustrated me to the point I gave up on the Shaptons. FWIW, they work well with blades with hollowed backs, I assume there is a reason they "grew up" with such tools.

-Dean

Re: overzealous waterstone truing

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>I had far too much trouble with my blades sticking to the stones. Major suction when making the final back laps to take off the burr. Using lots of water helped a bit, but still frustrated me to the point I gave up on the Shaptons.

Hi Dean

I, too, suffered the dreaded "Sticktion" when I began using the Shaptons. A little water helped. Then I watched Harrelson and he used a LOT of water, as much as I was using with the Kings. So I did the same, and ... voila ... no more sticktion.

The irony is that one of the reasons for switching to Shaptons was that they were reputedly used relatively dry (therefore less messy). What they do, in fact, is use less (nil) water in the pre-use/preparation stage.

True, they stay flat longer -- but are much harder to flatten when they do dish.

Heh .. heh ... is that not what this thread is all about? Anyway, I find that they flatten quite quickly with an Extra Coarse DMT. I use the same diamond stone for all my Shaptons (1000/5000/8000/12000 .... that 12000 is a wonderful stone!). I scribble a grid over the stone with a pencil, the way David Charlesworth teaches, and sand until the lines disappear. Takes about 30 seconds.

Regards from Perth

Derek

DMT flatness

Ryan Stagg - Cincinnati

>"the DMT diamond stones are rated to be flat enough that I don't bother checking"

I often wonder about that - I use a DMT to flatten my Nortons - the DMT is flat enough at rest, but wouldn't it tend to deform depending on technique?

If the stone is left resting, and the DMT rubbed against it, I would think the DMT would tend to deform with the stone. I can certainly bend the DMT with easy hand pressure. Do you make sure the DMT is on a reference surface, and rub the stone against it? I've tried both, not sure it makes a difference.

Re: DMT flatness

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>I am not sure if it makes a difference either, but I place the DMT on a flat surface facing upward and swipe the waterstone across the top of it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: DMT flatness

Frank D. in Montreal

>I have the big DMT 12" by 4" course/extra-course that I use just to flatten my Norton stones. It is not flat. I dont, know by how much it's out, maybe .01" along the length at the center. It doesn't really bother me though; I just flatten with the concave side first, then finish with the convex side. Things even out, perhaps leaving a slightly convex surface to the stone which IMO prevents dishing a little longer.

I flaten the stones every 4 to 10 blades, depending on what I'm sharpening. I also sharpen in a certain order, going from blades with no crown (block, shoulder) to end with the more heavily crowned blades (one of my jointers, jack). A very tiny dish in the stone actually makes flattening my smoothers quite easy, although I do use finger pressure on both sides to gauge crown.

Derek, IME using a sharpening jig doesn't leave a dish in the stones. I hardly put any pressure over the wheel, and it allows me to really cover the whole surface of the stone, kind of like pushing and pulling a lawn mower in a tight spot (so I'd say my stones remain flatter when I use jigs). I sharpen more freehand than I used to though, probably the bad influence of Denis Ch�nard. ;)

I use oil stones a lot more than I used too, although I did start using them mostly for narrow blades.

Whaddayamean, bad influence? :-)

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Always glad to help :^D

About the flattening, I hold my waterstone and DMT in each hand, and rub them together under water as if I was washing my hands. The sink in my shop is a tiny bar type one, so I have to be careful not to bang the stones against the sink walls.

"Honey, I need a bigger sink in the shop!" I'm sure that'll go well with her :-)

DC

Re: overzealous waterstone truing

Roderick Drumgoole

>Dean,

Just curious, what did you switch to after the Shaptons? I've used the Nortons for a few years, however I am looking for another solution when it comes to gouges and small chisels. Oil stones sound appealing, although I've never used them. I just hate the thought of having to different sharpening systems.

Roderick

Re: overzealous waterstone truing

David W Dougherty

>I know this question wasn't addressed to me, but I use carving tools a bunch in my work (violin making) and I use oil stones exclusively on them. I tried water stones, but they're just too soft in my opinion. I grind on a belt sander, use a Soft Arkansas stone for initial sharpening, and a True Hard stone for micro-bevel and quick re-sharpening. I use white compound on wood strops frequently while I'm using a tool--saves me time at the stones.

I use water stones for all of my chisels and plane irons.

Re: overzealous waterstone truing

Dean J in MN

>Roderick,

I'm now using sandpaper on glass for chisels and most plane irons. Carving gouges I can't do on paper/glass are done with some flea-market oil stones.

Cheers!

Dean

Me Too

Hank Knight

>I use the same rub-together method Denis uses and it works fine for me. I can tell pretty well when the stones are flat by watching the pattern the water makes when it runs off the stone. If the stone is flat. the water runs off in a consistent sheet. If there are hollows or high spots in the stone, they iterrupt the runoff sheet and the water clings to the stone in the hollows. I've wondered about the flatness of the DMT diamond stone, but I get such consistent results with my Norton's I've never bothered to check it.

Hank

Look at it from another perspective ...

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown, PA

>Do you have any trouble using the tools that you sharpen this way? If not, then maybe the sharpening is just fine. If you think you are spending too much time trueing, maybe try not trueing as often and see if that affects tool performance.

I used to fret and worry that I had nothing flat enough and that my technique was no good. I have an LV straight edge which can be more of a hindrance than a help at times. You can see really, really small errors with one of these. The error may look much worse than it is. A few specks of dust can look like pretty bad.

I watched Harrelson (in person) sharpen using the Shaptons. I think if I sharpened like that I'd give up woodworking as I'd have no time left. He did say that you want to do that level of sharpening on high end smoothers, generally, where you get the benefit of an edge that good. Harrelson flattened continuously, but using the shapton flattening plate it was a really fast process - not more than a few seconds. And yeah, he used a lot of water when I watched him.

I probably don't sharpen my tools or true my stones nearly enough, though.

Getting a new sink

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown, PA

>Just start doing this in the kitchen sink. Sooner or later you'll be told to get a new shop sink.

LOL! Good idea!

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>

Re: overzealous waterstone truing

Michael Brady

>I'm afraid your trust in the flatness of DMT stones is misplaced. I took a class from Chris Schwarz last Spring and he used a Shapton flattening stone for all of his truing. That is one fantastic way to do it, but just too rich for me. He flattens pretty much between every change of blades or irons. I marvel at how many on this forum, whose opinions I respect, have spent $80.00 for a (diamond)stone....which isn't flat anyway... to flatten their $50.00 waterstones. I must be missing something.

Bingo.

Warren in Lancaster, Pa

>I think you are onto a good idea, Stephen. The easy way to tell if you are an overzealous flattener is whether or not you can tell the difference if you flatten less often. If you are flattening because you read that it has to be perfect, you are getting no feedback from your tool performance. Do you need to flatten? How are your planes and chisels performing?

In recent months there have been discussions about how to put camber on plane irons, and also a stone conditioner that deliberately makes the stone slightly cancave. This is not a problem if you are not an obsessive flattener.

Re: overzealous waterstone truing

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Pulled off the LV product description:

The manufacturer aims for a surface tolerance of �0.003", but you can be safe in assuming a tolerance of �0.005".

Sounds flat enough for me...

As I said, I never measured the diamond stone for flatness, all I know is that I get good results.

DC

No difference.

Frank D. in Montreal

>The funny thing is, it makes no difference in the life of the stone how much you flatten. If you flatten every other blade, you only need a few swipes on the diamnd stone to get the waterstone flat. If you flatten every 50 blades, you'll probably need to take a whole lot more off the stone to get it flat. As Macbeth said, "If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly."

Re: No difference.

Warren in Lancaster, Pa

>I don't dispute the humor of your remarks, but I suspect you have no data to back them up. Do you wash your hands between bites of food? You would need so little soap each time that you might not use any more soap than a guy who just washes them once a meal.

Re: No difference.

Frank D. in Montreal

>Warren,

humor aside, doesn't one have to take more off if a stone is less flat? I assume that a stone that hasn't been flattened after 50 blades is less flat than a stone that has flattened 2 blades. If this isn't true than flattening doesn't need to be done (because stones stay flat). The only data I have is my own exerience; the longer I wait to flatten my stones. the longer it takes to flatten them.

FWIW