Wrench question? *LINK*

Possible answer

Paul Kramer

>JL,

IIRC it is used by the initial structural steel assemblers. The frames of high-rise buildings were initially assembled using bolts and then a follow-on crew did the final assembly with rivets. The tapered shafts were to align the holes in the pieces so that a bolt could be placed in one of the other holes.

HTH,

Paul

Re: Wrench question?

GolfSteve in Calgary

>That, my friend, is the next best thing to sliced bread if you are assembling anything big and heavy that is bolted together using studs. The tapered end is jammed through one bolt hole and used as a lever to align the rest of the bolt holes. Once everything is aligned and the studs are in place, the other end is used to tighten the nuts. I mostly use these for aligning flange holes in piping, but have done some structural assembly work as well.

Just don't drop one 3 meters onto your buddy's head like I did back in about 1995. Thank heaven for hard-hats and bad feelings that can be soothed with a case of beer.

These things can also be thrown 20 meters down at crane operators who allow the load to slip unexpectedly :-0

I think we call them spud wrenches around here.

A Spud Wrench, Without Question

Roy Anderson

>Used by structural steel workers to this day. The blunt point is shoved into the holes of two mating pieces of structural steel to align them and the stud bolts are put in. I was watching a crew of steel workers do this on a project of mine not too many months ago.

Re: A Spud Wrench, Without Question *LINK*

Roy Anderson

>Just to beat a dead horse, see link.


spud wrench

Re: Thanks...

JL

>So it isn't a tool that I would conceivably need. Hmmm - I guess I could give it to one of the local blacksmiths.

BINGO

Hank Knight

>I was an ironworker for two years between my sophomore and junior years at college. I got VERY familiar with the spud wrench. It's carried in a loop on a heavy leather belt with a leather pouch for bolts. It's one of those tools that perfect for it's intended use - but probably not much good for anything else.

Hank

Re: Wrench question?

"RJ" Whelan

>Back in my utility constructions days (transmission towers, poles, etc.) we called them a "linemans wrench". You can buy new ones from Klein Tools ... rj

Re: Wrench question?

GolfSteve in Calgary

>After replying yesterday, I got to thinking about why it is called a "spud" wrench. This was what I found:

http://mdmetric.com/tech/astmstruct.htm#N_3_

"The term "spud" wrench is a contribution of Irish-American iron workers. A spud wrench is a hand wrench with the grip at one end and a long tapered handle at the other. The tapered handle is similar to a sailor's marlin spike and is used to jamb into a series of holes to help align the holes before inserting the bolt. The name "spud" comes from the Gaelic word for a digging stick, "spaid." The potato is called a spud because the tool used to dig them out was a simple stick."

Wikopedia had this bit of trivia:

"Podging Wrench or Podger: A steel erecting tool which consists of a normal wrench at one end and a spike at the other, used for lining up bolt holes. In the U.S. often called a spud wrench."

That Wikopedia quote reminds me of when I was working in Australia where Pipe Wrenches (aka. Monkey Wrenches) were called "Stilsons", and Crescent Wrenches were called "Adjustable Spanners". What a great world we live in.

Wikopedia also has a bunch of interesting trivia about the term "Monkey Wrench", stating that this term is often incorrectly applied to pipe wrenches, and that the actual name is a "Moncky" wrench after the name of the inventor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_wrench

A snarky OT question w/up front apologies

cooper suter

>No personal offense intended (just a nerve hit) but how could you have BEEN an ironworker when you only did it for two summers during college?

Granted, you WORKED as an iron worker, you got paid to do iron work, you were probably productive and got stuff done as you were INSTRUCTED to do, but there's no possible way that you became a full fledged tradesman in a few months on the job.

Iron work is a legitimate trade w/many facets, and learning a trade is a decades long endeavor, not a summer job..

It takes a minimum of four years to complete any sort legitimate apprenticeship in a building trade, many are longer.

There also are plenty of great tradesmen who never served an apprenticeship, but they certainly have needed to put more than a couple of summers into mastering a trade.

I once read an article (circa 1985) regarding "Yuppies", which pointed out how a hallmark of yuppiedome was to claim a legitimate "working man's" chops to excuse a lucrative "non-masculine" career in say.... venetian blind sales.

i.e.; "Well you know, I paid for my MBA by shooting wolverines in Alaska in the summers."

Coop,

PS, Spud wrenches, as others have noted, are far from an exclusive tool of the ironworkers.

As a carpenter I own and use several for things like form work, rigging, millwright work, etc.

Re: A snarky OT question w/up front apologies

Tony Zaffuto

>I agree. I served a four year apprenticeship before I earned journeyman status as a carpenter. It took at least as many more before I could reason like many of the older carpenters I worked with.

I took a withdrawl card from the union in 1989 to go into business for myself, but to this day, the tradesmen I worked with (all trades--carpenters, electricians etc.) remain some of the most able doers and thinkers I have been around.

Incidentally, I have four spud wrenches in my shop. The tapered ends were used as drift/alignment pins and are much too large for Chris Swartz to change into drawbore pins :).

Well, at least you realize its snarky...

John in New Mexico

>Yes, shame on all them yuppies trying to pose as macho studmen who do real work! How dare you claim to be an IRONWORKER when all you actually did was iron work!

Jeez, now I'm being snarky back - sorry coop, whole thing just struck me kinda silly. I'll probably be embarassed I even posted it tomorrow, but what the hey, live for the moment :)

Learn something every day

Andrew F in Australia

>I know them as a podgy spanner. A google search will bring up a few links.

Cheers,

Andrew

"when all you actually did was iron work".....

cooper suter

>Maybe we both need to be embarassed this morning ;).

My point was that for many trades there's a portion of the work that is basically "widget in hole" type repetitive work that can be performed w/supervision by basically unskilled but hard working individuals.

Those individuals would be called "apprentices", or when work is to overwhelmingly busy for actual members to man "permit workers" (at least that's how the local ironworkers do it), neither one is considered an actual iron worker until they've earned journeyman status through training and/or years worked.

Being able to put a given widget into a given hole as told doesn't make you a journeyman, an "Ironworker".

The mark of a journeyman (i.e. tradesman) is the broad knowledge of the entire given job/trade, the ability to see and build the whole;

Layout, assembly sequence, fabrication, rigging, material nomenclature/selection, connecting skills, safe work practices, certified welding, physical/mental condition/stamina to perform the trade day in day out for a lifetime,the ability to supervise or at least work productively w/other tradesmen, applying all the afore mentioned to ALL the types of work that the trade involves (rod busting, structural connecting, architectural work, fencing, rigging/setting precast, crane/machinery erection and tear down, etc.

Though I'm no Ironworker, as a Carpenter I know one big personal battle a JOURNEYMAN fights is going out and performing immenantly dangerous work on a daily basis, for a lifetime.

As you age and have a family, what seemed like a macho ballsy adventure when you were 21 (or 31, I personally was invincible until 35 ;)) can still be exciting and rewarding when your 41 or 51, but not neccesarily worth it.

It's a unique feeling to kiss your kids goodbye in the morning and on the drive to work ponder not coming home that night, all for at best a middle class wage.

Coop

Actually sound pretty safe, considering...

John in New Mexico

>Nobody's even pointing guns at ya!

I must be ignorant of the linguistic nuances of the iron work trade, but I still think you came down a bit hard on Hank. Heck, I come down real hard on granite counter salesmen so I guess its all relative.

Re: A snarky OT question w/up front apologies

Hank Knight

>Cooper,

I apparently hit a nerve. Us yuppies do that from time to time. I apologize. Since you asked in such a polite, nonconfrontational manner, I'll tell you how I became an ironworker.

As preface, I should tell you that I live in South Carolina. Labor unions are not big down here in this part of Dixie, so I did not go through an apprenticeship, nor do I claim to be a journeyman ironworker.

I ran out of money in my sophomore year in college and needed a job. I was offered a job with Wilhiot Steel Erectors, here in Columbia. Wilhoit was a well known steel erector. They worked jobs all ovet the world. Wilhoit was also famous for designing and building cranes - large ones. I took the job. Again it was a non-union operation, so I was never involved with union membership rules, seniority and such. I could read blueprints, so started as a ground man. My job was to locate the next piece of iron to go up on the building and drag it to the crane with a motorized a-frame (basically a wercker truck). After a couple of months of that, I was made a "bolt-up man." The "connectors" took the iron from the crane, put it in place and secured it with a couple of bolts. The bolt-up guys came along behind them ,placed the rest of the bolts in the joint and tightened them with a huge impact wrench called a "yo-yo." Sometimes, depending on the job design, the joints were welded. I never did any welding, but I learned the rudiments and can still stick two pieces of metal together with an arc welder when I have to.

One day after I'd been on the job for about 9 months, the connectors got ticked of at the foreman and walked off the job. The foreman asked me if I wanted to try my hand at connecting and I said, "Sure." Apparently I did O.K. because I remained a connector (the top job on the crew, except for the welders) for the remainder of the time I was there - a little over a year.

We built industrial facilities all over the southeast. I was basically a college kid, but nobody cut me any slack. I did the job just like the 20-year guy next to me. It wasn't rocket science, just hard work. I may not have qualified as a jounreyman ironworker under the Irnoworkers Union apprenticeship standards, but As far as I was concerned, and as far as my boss was concerned, I was an ironworker and I make no apologies about calling myself an ironworker. It was probably the most fun job I ever had.

Outstanding post, Hank!!

Wiley Horne--So. Calif.

>Sets things to rights.

Wiley

Not just yuppies

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>Way back in 1975-76, when I worked at the local junior college's maintenance department on a welfare-to-work program, one of the other grunts who worked with me claimed, over the course of a few weeks, to be a journeyman carpenter, plumber, electrician, and I can't remember what other three or four trades. We finally figured out that he was confused by the definition, thinking that "journeyman" was derived from the French word, "journee," meaning "day," and that, if he'd done something for a day, he was a journeyman.

As someone who attempted but failed at several trades before becoming an office wage slave, I can appreciate both Coop's frustration and Hank's. The reality of many trades is that you spend 90% of your time doing highly routine stuff (when I bent tin for six months, just about all we did was run gutters, ductwork, and flashing on dingbat construction), and it's easy to forget that the remaining 10% takes years to master.

Long, further OT, w/apology redux, and .......

cooper suter

>.....my comparison was tradesmen to venetian blind salesmen, not soldiers ;).

Hank, I'm glad your taking this in the spirit it was intended, not directed at you per say, your post was a catalyst to my own issues.

Sorry if the "Yuppie" tag hit home ;).

I can totally appreciate you pride and fond memories of that job.

Everyone should have the experience of performing a challenging, dangerous, exhausting, and in the end satisfying job.

If it's reaching the point of offense, I think we've all had our say and I'm content to leave it, but if it's still OK, I'll go one more round.

For me, the nut of it is the continual assault on the trades as a legitimate life long career for people who want to be able to provide a stable decent standard of living for their families in a safe productive environment.

The only reason I see for this pressure is higher short term profit, even if it means destroying the continuity of cumulative knowledge w/in the trades every generation and killing some people.

There are MANY contractors who's basic business model is based on a fresh crop of young naive kids (or immigrants) showing up each year to be run hard, underpaid, put at risk, and discarded as soon as they begin to develope enough actual skill and maturity to demand fair pay and reasonable safety levels.

When ANY untrained, low experienced person working at a job is considered a titled tradesmen (whether an ironworker, a plumber, a carpenter, etc.) it starts a downward spiral that only benefits the shoddy contractor.

As the quality, safety, and continuity of the work performed decline do to the lack of experience and training of the "tradesman", it becomes a ready excuse for lowering the wages and benefits of all tradesmen and denigrating the name.

Why doesn't anyone complain when "professionals" protect the right to be called a doctor, lawyer, architect, engineer, etc. by requiring those claiming that TITLE to have fulfilled a minimum level of instruction and experience?

Given two people having the same basic levels of intelligence and work ethic, the person w/more actual training/instruction, and years of work experience is going to be the better tradesman.

That is why the concept of instruction in conjunction w/a minimum number of verified years experience in the trade has been the accepted path to the journeyman status, for centuries.

The only other generally accepted method to journeyman status is through YEARS of verified on the job experience and either passing a test, or having a CONTRACTOR confirm your value as a tradesman by agreeing to pay you a journeyman's scale.

The common thread of both routes to journeyman status is YEARS in the trade.

Specific to your story, (once again, no personal offense intended, it was MY nerve that got hit ;);

Why did the connectors walk out on the foreman?

Could it have been a safety issue?

Were they getting paid on time? The correct amount? Overtime?

Was the job being run efficiently and productively?

Were the men being treated w/dignity, or driven like dogs?

Did they pay you as much as the guys you replaced, or a little less since you were green?

When they had you replace the connectors, did you get any instruction in how to do the job, or was it "go and give it a try" and lets see how you do?

Connecting's a hell of a job to learn by trial and error, not much of a margin of error on a 10" beam 200' up w/a load coming at you.

How would you feel if someone sent your son up on steel w/out training?

An additional factor that YEARS of experience furnishes to the able tradesman is the ability and confidence to see when something isn't right and speak up about it, whether the issue is safety, productivity, quality, or money.

Coop

Titles

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>My plain neighbor works in the building trades. He is forbidden by his church to have education beyond 8th grade, to drive a car, or to join a union. But many times he has been dropped off at a job site, shown a stake in the ground, and handed a blue print. He can excavate, form and finish concrete, lay block, frame, roof, drywall, finish carpentry, siding, etc. He has no title, no formal training, just competence. He is constantly being complemented on his work, and asked why his crews do finer work than others.

Plain crews from my neighborhood are driven to New Jersey, New York, Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia. They are hired because of their high quality and productivity. Many have worked for more than one person or have had their own businesses. If someone offers them more money they can happily "walk off the job". Formal training and long apprenticeships can help train people, but they can also stifle talented people and cause rigidity in the job market.

Re: Long, further OT, w/apology redux, and .......

Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi

>Coop,

Do you have to be actually working to be considered a tradesman or are you considered one even when qualifiying in the distant past?

Jim

Good discussion on both sides.

Martin from Granbury

>

I fit through that loop hole

cooper suter

>Actually Jim,

I had 30 hrs. at school last week.

I was headed to a dental appointment at 8:30 friday morning and got a job call for a rush job at Bayshore Power.

Worked until 3:30 AM, got two hours sleep, and went back in for another eight hours.

Got home Saturday PM w/a twelve pack and was half way through it when I jumped into this thread.

So yes, I've been "actually working", and maybe the beer and the sleep deprivation explains my posts better than my logic ;).

coop

Everyone does it

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>The "it" being underestimating the intelligence, skill, time, and hard work involved in jobs that the "others" do. "Oh, what can be so hard about that job, you just do this and that and you're done." But when it comes to that person's job, they wax long and in detail about how hard the job is, how long it took them to learn it, etc.

Conversely, people tend to underestimate the ability of people from other skill sets to master their own. My own little story to illustrate this involves a particularly chauvinistic woodworker who uses Japanese tools, powered and hand. I'd spent a couple or three years studying woodworking and Japanese tools and was thinking seriously about how to make a living at it (my software development firm was killed by 9/11, which killed my small business customers for a couple of years). Rather than trying to resurrect it, I decided to try something different. After all, 33 years is a long time, even with the variety in developing software. Also, keep in mind that I've done woodworking off and on since I was 11 years old.

At the point I thought I had something serious to teach to beginners about Japanese tools, I was offered the opportunity to teach a class on Japanese hand tools, a single day survey course (plus a week long "build a rocking chair" class) at a relatively new school in Indiana. This was very encouraging. I was both prepared and excited. So what does this chauvinist pig do? He bad mouthed me all over the place, even to the extent that he called the owner of the school, told her I was not good enough, I didn't know everything there was to know about Japanese tools and/or woodworking (true, of course), and suggested that if she wanted a teacher she should hire him.

So, Cooper, what do you say to that?

Pam

what do you say to that?.........uummmhh????......

cooper suter

>