Question - 18th Century Tools & Processes

Re: Adam ?

Norman (Ottawa, Ont.)

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Re: Question - 18th Century Tools & Processes

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>For large curved moldings like this it is nice to use a firmer gouge to waste away large amounts of wood. The size and the sweep are not important- you just want something sturdy you can really whack to remove waste quickly. Then the finishing work is done with carving gouges that have a curvature that nearly matches the final molding. Some people use scrapers to remove carving tool marks, but I get a good finish from the gouges. I think people did it both ways in the 18th century as well.

I would not use an incannel gouge for this work.

Re: Question - 18th Century Tools & Processes

Adam Cherubini

>I don't know the answer.

I recently did a shaped molding and had good luck with carving tools. The scraper didn't leave a great surface for what I was doing, but it helped to keep the shape consistent.

The only thing I would add is that I think incannel and outcannel were probably imprecise terms then. My guess is that many of their tools' were knife edged. I've had good luck with tools like this. Warren and I have talked about this, and I'd like to hear his thoughts about again.

Adam

Re: Question - 18th Century Tools & Processes

Joel

>The Sheffield Key clearly shows the caving tools ground pretty much the way you would today - chisels being double beveled and the gouges out-cannel. I don't think a knife edge gouge would work well as the reason for using out-cannel gouges with at best a small inner cannel is to keep the tools under control and not digging in.

At the time the sweeps and such were not standardized and would have varied considerably between region of manufacture (In Sheffield, if the key is any guide there, seems to have been some standards)

Scribing gouges, while of use to cabinetmakers were mostly popular for patternmakers who needed precise dimensioning and those standards are later, 19th century.

Depending on the woodworking operation of course there is a need for both in and out cannel tools, but these can be made to any curvature and Ashley Iles to name one modern maker will be happy to grind matching in and out cannell gouges of any sweep.

Joel, what is double bevelled if not knife edged?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

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Re: Question - 18th Century Tools & Processes

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>In carving, we use out cannel gouges, that is gouges with the bevel on the outside edge, almost exclusively. Some people sharpen with a slightly shallower bevel and use a small back bevel on the inside of the curve, and some sharpen with no back bevel. In use we sometimes ride on the inside surface of the gouge (when working a convex surface) and sometimes ride on the bevel.

As Joel has suggested incannel gouges generally have more technical uses. Some of them would be hard to describe. The incannel gouges are more work to sharpen because you need to use a series of slipstones- its just not as fast as sharpening on a flat stone.

Woodcarving chisels both straight chisels and skew are usually sharpened equally on both faces like a knife. They are also rather delicate compared to bench chisels, often less than 1/8 inch in thickness,

Re: Joel, what is double bevelled if not knife edg

Joel

>A knife edge would be where the front and back of a tool taper down their entire length to nothing. A double bevel would be a 15-25 degree on each side of the tool at the cutting edge distinct from the front and back of the tool.

Huh?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

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Re: Huh?

Dan Donaldson

>Like a back bevel on a plane blade. On my carving gouges, I sharpen them with what would be the main bevel of a plane blade on the outside, and a very small bevel on the inside. I think what Joel is referring to is a straight bevel to a flat inside, although that would not be the way a knife is sharpened. ;-)

Re: Question - 18th Century Tools & Processes

Roderick Drumgoole

>Woodcarving chisels both straight chisels and skew are usually sharpened equally on both faces like a knife. They are also rather delicate compared to bench chisels, often less than 1/8 inch in thickness.

Warren,

Is this the reasoning on why one would use the thicker firmer gouges on large swan neck moldings?

Roderick

Re: Huh?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Are you and Joel saying that such sharpening makes the chisel behave differently than a knife?

Pam

Re: Huh?

Dan Donaldson

>I am not sure what Joel is saying, but the inner, small bevel helps keep the gouge from diving into the wood and enables me to come up out of a cut. I am not sure what you mean by behaving different than a knife. I would guess that a knife sharpened only on one side would be difficult to use for carving because it would also tend to dive, but I can't say that from experience. What we may have here is a matter of semantics where we are all saying the same things, but with different terms. ;-)

It might depend on what you call a "knife edge".

Re: Huh?

Joel

>Let me try to clarify:

On a knife the front and back taper to make the edge. On a carving tool the front and back might taper a little but the cutting edge is formed by either one 25 degree bevel on the back or a 25 degree bevel on the front and back. THe steepness of the bevel is important because when carving the heel of the bevel is used to provide leverage to steep the carving tool into and out of the wood. An inner bevel is used to break the shaving and also help control the chisel.

A carving tool formed to a knive edge would not have the bevel needed at the cutting edge to control the cut of the tool.

Re: Question - 18th Century Tools & Processes

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Carving chisels {flat} are more delicate than bench chisels, and carving gouges (curved) are usually more delicate than firmer gouges. I was suggesting a firmer gouge might be used on this type of carving because of the great amount of wood to be wasted away, and then finish up with carving gouges. You could easily do the whole thing with carving gouges only. I would not buy a firmer gouge for just one project.

Re: Huh?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Many of the most accomplished carvers use a long bevel on the out canel and a short bevel on the interior canel, Ian Agrell for example. I define a knife edge as one formed by two bevels meeting, doesn't much matter what the taper is.

Pam

Re: Huh?

Frank D. in Montreal

>Wouldn't a knife edge be the meeting of two bevels of equal angles, like two 20� bevels meeting to form a 40� edge? Some carvers put a 5 or 10 degree incannel (bevel) on their gouges, but wouls it really be a knife edge if the main (outer) bevel is 15 or 20� (no knives have this cutting geometry).

Just wondering,

Frank

Re: Huh?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>In these matters I tend to be a reductionist, but I don't know. I've got serrated steak knives with very tiny bevels and non-serrated with very tiny bevels and much larger knives with two very long bevels. Given this, I decided some years ago to categorize all double-bevel, no bevel at 90� (by this I mean a straight, non-beveled, conformation, but tend to be confused by how people talk about smaller angled bevels), as knives.

Pam

Re: Huh?

Frank D. in Montreal

>I see what you mean Pam. I actually consider serrated knives to be more like saws (because they cut with teeth). High-end serrated knives are serrated on both sides and have equal bevels on each side. And some Japanese knives are hollow on one side (like the ura of a plane blade) and have a bevel on the other side...all this to say that I guess you can find examples of just about any kind of cutting geometry on a given kind of tool. So for me a knife edge would be a typical, double-beveled edge with two equal bevels and an edge in the center of the thickness of the blade. Anyway, thanks for sharing, these questions interest me.

Re: Huh?

ThomD

>"In these matters I tend to be a reductionist, but I don't know. I've got serrated steak knives with very tiny bevels and non-serrated with very tiny bevels and much larger knives with two very long bevels. Given this, I decided some years ago to categorize all double-bevel, no bevel at 90� (by this I mean a straight, non-beveled, conformation, but tend to be confused by how people talk about smaller angled bevels), as knives.

Pam"

A whole slew of Japanese knives have left or right handed bevels like a chisel, and for some of the same reasons, the ability to sharpen geometrically perfect edges, in which regard a surface you can flaten a polish to perfection with only one bevel has certain advantages.

I'm sure a topologist would see little difference in bevelledness in whether the bevels were long or short. The main thing about knives is the relative position of the handle to the edge (would probably not impress topologist either). The feature there being the degree to which it is designed to cut or chop (predominant motion being perpendicular or parallel to the surface). Knives have the benefit of allowing both in most cases. Hum, and the more I think about any of that the more confusing it is. Some knives are mostly designed to be poked into things, though the majority of the edge is on the non-poking side... Yup I know one when I see it... (oh nuts)

Re: Huh?

MikeW

>Thom wrote: "A whole slew of Japanese knives have left or right handed bevels like a chisel..."

And I thought I would simply plop a picture here for no other reason than...I can .

These are my main knives I use for marking. For for a sense of scale, the top one is the Japanese knife sold by Woodcraft. My users are much more substantial.

Take care, Mike

Re: Huh?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>OK, guys, right you are, and I even have a bunch of these. So why do you suppose these are called knives?

Pam

Re: Huh?

MikeW

>Hey Pam--someone else is right...not me!

I was just being a bit silly and plopped in a picture because Thom mentioned Japanese knives.

As to why they are so-called? I don't know why, just are I guess. Been an interesting discussion, though.

Take care, Mike

Re: Huh?

ThomD

>That extends as you doubtless know to kitchen knives also. Knives that would be recognized by anyone as knives. I think they are knives based on the uses, and the format. Bevel has little to do with it, and the kinds of bevels on knives vary a lot from two, to one, to none in the case of knives with a convex grind where the cross section is more like an aircraft wing or a teardrop with no micro bevel. Same thing found on drawknives, and axes. As you mention Pam there are the various serated knives (yuck) that have multiple bevels.

Re: Huh?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Would those new LV spoon bits be an example of a convex grind knife without bevel?

Pam