English Mortice Chisels

Re: English Mortice Chisels

Paul in NJ

>Hi Stephen,

I have mortice chisels by Butcher, Cam, and Tillotson. They are all English and I think made in Sheffield. They all have draft, almost a 1/32" less from front to back. They also taper slightly in width from cutting edge to handle. I am not sure how old they are but they are of laminated construction.

Paul Dzioba

Re: English Mortice Chisels

Joel

>I have never seen a English Oval Bolstered Mortise chisel that wasn't trapaziodal. And I have looked at tons of them.

If you take a trapaziod and tilt away from the bevel the back edges will cleanly shear your mortise square without getting stuck. the deeper the mortise the more useful the shape. For shallow mortises - sash mortise are appropriate and they are not trapaziodal.

Re: English Mortice Chisels

mikew

>All mine are trapazoidal, Stephen.

Even the little guy on the right. However, there is less a difference in the little one between the face and back.

Take care, Mike

Re: English Mortice Chisels

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>All mine are trapezoidal, too, and I prefer them that way. It's also the way most Japanese mortising chisels are shaped, and I like them a lot.

However, if I find one that's not, I'll be happy to either grind it a tad or send it to you.

Pam

Re: English Mortice Chisels

Dean J in MN

>All I've looked at and own are also trapezoidal. As Joel and others have said, it is an asset in use -- they don't get stuck in the mortise.

-Dean

Re: English Mortice Chisels

Adam Cherubini

>All mine are relieved, drafted, whatever. Additionally all of my firmers are as well. Just recently noticed that and I'd appreciate any feed back from the rest of you. Are your firmers also drafted?

I think they wanted the back to NOT influence the cut. The opposite of what it sounds like you are doing. In my mind this is exactly the same as saws without set. I don't think folks used set-less blades or square sided chisels to help them work straight. They had other ways that didn't involved increased friction.

That said if it helps you, hang on to those chisels of yours! You're liable not to find similar tools easily.

Adam

Re: English Mortice Chisels *LINK*

Roderick Drumgoole

>Perhaps the link below to Japan Woodworker is the style of mortice chisel that you are desiring. Also, take a look at their "Firmer" chisels as these are what I use; those also may work for what you are attempting.

Roderick


http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=14.301.03&dept_id=12791

A little dab'll do you

Wiley Horne--So. Calif.

>Hi Stephen,

I have 5 mortise chisels made by a Japanese smith named Imai. These chisels are consistent in having a small amount of relief--0.01", with the variation from chisel to chisel about 1 thousandth. This 0.01" is enough to keep the chisel from binding in the cut, but not so loose that it can wiggle in the cut when you hit it.

Sounds like you are perfectly happy with the chisels set up the way the way you have them, but if you get curious, you might try just a small amount of relief. I like Adam's analogy with the saw.

Wiley

Re: English Mortice Chisels

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>We are talking English Mortice Chisels here, I don't know about Japanese. I think I have found the problem and we are all right, however I am right first.

You all have nice old English Oval Bolster Tanged Mortice Chisels, as you have said and shown in pictures. I own two of the aformentioned types one by Hearnshaw a Sheffield maker and ROBT SORBY, they have only been sharpened one maybe two times and are in original condition. At the tip and extending back behind the bevel the chisels are perfectly rectangular, where the morticing takes place. Up the blade it is relieved. My chisels are nearly new and yours have been used and ground away.

As Always I Remain

Sincerely,

Stephen Shepherd

Re: English Mortice Chisels

Joel

>Nope - Sorry - They should have the trapazoidal profile new or used. Your chisels might have survived as long as they did because they were parellel and less desirable so they got cast aside. If you get yourself a trapoziodal chisels and compare ease of use you will see what we all are talking about.

Re: English Mortice Chisels

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>All of my hooped mortice chisels are rectangular and square. All of my socket mortice chisels are rectangular and square. Two tanged and octagonal bolster mortice chisels (one British and one American) are rectangular and square. And these are early tools nothing after 1850 (that may not be early to some). I have a Sorby hooped mortice chisel, new/old style, that is also rectangular and square.

The sides of the mortice chisels on old foot powered mortice machines are perfectly rectangular in profile.

I know those square sides make square mortices, even the sharp sides of the bevel helps pare the side grain on the cheeks.

Stephen

Re: English Mortice Chisels

Joel

>Cabinetmakers and doormakers - people needed deep mortises fast - used oval bolstered mortise chisels. What you describe are sash mortise chisels which were for windows or for soem reason shipwrights seemed to prefer socket mortise chisels - Oval Bolstered mortise chisels were never hooped.

Find a trapazoidal and try it for comparison.

You got me Joel...

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>I am a cabinetmaker and have a proclivity for the nautical. I know the ovals are not hooped, the hooped ones I have are octagonal or round.

Now when I want to do a big deep mortice fast, I use a twibil. The chisel end is rectangular in profile and square. The ax end is double beveled with a belly.

Stephen

Re: You got me Stephen...

Joel

>With a Mortise chisel I can chop - pretty accurately a mortise 1/4" x 2" x 1" deep in about a minute. I have tried a Twybill but I can't seem to use it accurately and I always am afraid of accidently splitting my head in two.

Re: English Mortice Chisels

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I think that the straight sided chisels give a slightly more precise mortise. But I wonder how many would really benefit from the extra precision. For example, I wonder how many people saw precisely enough to notice a slight difference in the mortise. There are are many mortising situations where great precision is unnecessary (like a kitchen table) and speed of mortising is more the issue.

I also notice that many on this forum use mortising techniques that would not take advantage of the scraping action of a square sided chisel. (An example of that would be the technique where one drills a hole and makes multiple vertical chops pushing the waste into the hole- there is little longitudinal movement by the chisel that would scrape the sides clean.)

Re: English Mortice Chisels

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>Very good point Warren. I am concerned with square mortices because I tend to cut square tenons (that is a whole other can of worms). So the two are made for each other. It is not that that much precision is required, it is just the uniformity. If my mortices are square then square tenons will fit.

The side paring of a rectangular square mortice chisel is an added benefit of a dedicated tool.

I drill a relief hole anytime I chop a mortice and the square tool chops a square mortice as long as I can hold the line.

Stephen

Re: English Mortice Chisels

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>One big problem I found with the squared mortising chisels is the tendency to split softwoods, which is never a problem with the trapezoidal.

You're right that I never drill before chopping. And I never pare the sides of a mortise.

Pam

Ray Iles Mortise Chisels

Kevin Adams

>Joel--

Any idea when you'll be back in stock with the Iles mortise chisels?

Thanks.

Kevin

Re: Ray Iles Mortise Chisels

joel -( tools for working wood)

>I should have the 1/4" in a couple of weeks. There was a steel shortage that Ray has finally solved. The rest of the sizes should follow soon after. Ray is also taking steps with new machinery to increase total production - although no matter what he does there is a lot of handwork in the chisels.

Thanks, Joel.

Kevin Adams

>

Lie-Nielsen Mortise Chisels

Kevin Adams

>Just out of curiosity, has anyone used the L-N mortise chisels and if so, any opinions? I have never seen them in person, but from the photo they appear to be more of a square, sash-type chisel vs. the trapazoidal shape we are talking about here.

If anyone has any first-hand experience, I'd appreciate any comments.

Thanks.

Kevin

Yes, they're sash type...

John in New Mexico

>Ground square in other words. They're what you'd expect from LN, though in all honesty I prefer the English pattern over theirs. I betcha they'd make them trapezoidal if one asked, pretty easy to do with a horizontal mill.

John

Re: Lie-Nielsen Mortise Chisels

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>I have a LN mortise chisel. The back is flat out of the box. The A2 takes and keeps an edge very well. It is a sash mortise chisel. The blade is square with no taper I can tell. I haven't used it for deep mortises yet. My Hirsch mortise chisel holds an edge about as well as the LN IMHO. However, the Hirsch was a bear to get it flat on the back and ready to go. I've broken down and ordered an English bolstered mortise chisel from Joel. I'm anxious to see what the buzz is about. The Hirsch is metric and that alone has soured my opinion of it. I like the large handle it has but it does feel clunky. The LN would be better if it had a larger handle. All things considered, I think that the Ray Iles chisel might just answer all my objections to what I have been using. I'd love to get some millwright chisels to try out. But that's another post.

Why would metric mortise chisels make a difference

Mark Harrison - Brisbane, Australia

>Surely the tenon doesn't care?

I'm just curious.