Getting rid of the power jointer.

Re: Getting rid of the power jointer.

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I would guess that 99 percent or more of people who work in a modern cabinet shop have never sharpened a plane iron. They sharpen chisels on a belt sander and think they are really sharp. You're absolutely right about the grand canyon. I will probably keep my power jointer because it would cost me more to replace it if I decided I wanted on in the future.

Re: and another...

Ted Shuck, Centennial, CO

>I don't use any power tools for woodworking. I have never owned a jointer or planer. I have a table saw, but have not used it in about 4 years. I don't mind if it takes a bit longer (maybe quite a bit!) to make some things, I enjoy the entire process. This is just a hobby for me, so I have no time schedule that I need to meet.

Last year I made a desk for my younger son; it took me most of the year to build it. This year I am working on a pair of dressers for my older son. He won't graduate from college for 2 years, so I have some time. I usually have some side projects to keep things interesting during one of these epics.

Best Regards,

Ted

Another approach to dimensioning boards.

Norman (Ottawa, Ont.)

>I'm not sure if it has been already mentioned but what I find myself doing is resawing a board to make both faces parallel to each other.

In the past,Ihave asked myself why run a board through the thickness planer to bring down to thickness when I can salvage a decent thick veneer or thin board from it by simply resawing. The thought of pulverizing the board into shavings when a part of it can be salvaged for other uses appeals to me greatly.

Let me explain....

I will prepare the face and edge of a rough board to both flatten them and make them perpendicular to each other. Straightforward to accomplish this with hand planes..

Then I run the board through the bandsaw set up for resawing. It is typically a one-pass operation (often quicker than repeated passes on a thickness planer), works for most boards I use for my projects,

and I feel a whole lot better having salvaged a part of a board that would have been reduced to shavings. The board face which has been resawn can easily be smoothed with hand planes at this point, as it is flat.. So now I have a good collection of very thin boards to be used for other components of projects.

If these are boards with nice figure it makes even more sense to do this...

Of course you need a well-tuned bandsaw for this operation,set up for resawing, etc...

Paul, now you can ditch the thickess planer also :)

Norman

may we develop this thought?

Bill Tindal, E.TN

>"I think the only way I can really up the skill level is to get rid of it."

Let us start with an extreme example to develop this thought. If Goddard or Townsend had not used apprentices to flatten and joint they would have had less time to develop their unmatched carving skills and the world would have fewer of these pieces to treasure. No doubt each flattened and jointed as apprentices but then they used their time to develop other skills to the best of their ability, eventually becoming unmatched in their skills at carving and designing. Or if you prefer a modern example, choose Krenov who developed his skills of design and fitting.

If the noble goal is to develop skills should we not be spending the time to develop skills more advanced than the apprentice activities of board flattening and edge jointing? Does anyone have more connection with a piece than Krenov who didn't eschew machines for apprentice work.

I suppose to a point one can make the argument that developing apprentice skills is a necessary step to more advanced skills, so long as one keeps in mind that the apprentice skills are a means to this end. For guidance we could look to the schools developing skilled woodworkers to see what tasks they use machines for.

Separate from this issue of skill building is relaxing. Some watch television, some flatten boards and others use a buck saw to cut fire wood. The object of these activities may be simply relaxing, and honestly admitted as such, not learning.

Re: may we develop this thought?

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>As a professional carver, I have made Goddard finials, shells and rosettes. These types of things are fun to put in a scrapbook or show off to your friends, but frankly it is just work. After many years, when I am alone in the shop, it is just as rewarding to do a fine job of stock preparation as to do these carvings. And a skillful job of preparation yields dividends in the ease of joinery, fitting, smoothing, etc. Sometimes I am given machine prepared stock to dovetail for other businesses. I invariably have to redo the dimensioning by hand in order to do neat and efficient joinery.

It is not clear that the master was doing the carving in the Goddard or Townsend shops. Many 18th century shops hired a carver or sent the work out. There is some eveidence that the Townsend family moved stuff around among shops. The real skill in operating a shop is keeping the clients happy.

I don't get it!?

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>It sounds like people are taking their wood from the jointer and planer directly to the project. I get most of my wood already surfaced. No need for the p*w*r tools. Then I use smoothers, scrapers to clean up the appearance and finish. Then it goes to the project, i.e., the joints, fit, etc. Bill, how would this slow down the number of projects coming out of my shop as you said it would do for you? Or do you run it through the machines, fit the joints and then use sandpaper?

Haven't need one yet

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown, PA

>So I can't really talk about getting rid of one. I tend to agree with many of the posts above that I like working by hand, staying in touch with the wood. Also, when you have less power tools, you learn what is important in a project (like the example from Adam that was mentioned).

I use my power planer a lot for thicknessing boards, but I will sometimes plane one side reasonably flat by hand so I have a good reference face. Edge jointing is fast and easy with a handplane, once you get used to it.

However, one question I have for you is: Are you woodworking for money or is it just a pleasurable hobby? If you are making money at this, then speed is likely of the essence and you should stick with the jointer. If it's a hobby and you want to enjoy other ways of doing things, then start working without it.

Hmm, how about you disconnect the jointer and make it generally un-useable for a while. That way, if you don't like working without it, you can always put it back into service.

This reminds me, I really gotta get a scrub plane. Using my LV LA jack set for thick shavings works, but probably isn't as fast.

Excellent perspective...

VTAndy4

>...on apprenticeship.

At one point in graduate school, I spent a year researching the history of the trade system in Germany, right up through the present, and what you wrote corresponds to some of what I encountered during that research. Also, since that trade system is still intact -- to a certain extent -- in modern Germany and Austria (although the apprentices enjoy more freedom these days, and there are measures to protect them from the sometimes arbitrary abuses, and moreover, there are actually quite a few substantial alterations in the system), one can observe that over the course of the apprenticeship, the apprentice is to be engaged in all aspects of the trade, not years of repetitive tasks, although they might be subject to what we might think of as hazing for a few weeks. My friends (all journeymen) who work in the German trades system are also quick to note that the title of master refers as much, if not more, to advanced schooling in running the business and teaching apprentices, and to expanded responsibilities financially and educationally, as it does to mastery of advanced techniques, whereas a journeyman is generally free from such responsibilities and has achieved the knowledge considered to be central to the trade in question. Of course, Master/Journeyman/Apprentice have meant different things at different times and places; there is still a thread throughout. Generally, American fantasies of the meanings of apprentice/journeyman/master seem to be linked more to the Romantic treatments of craft in literature (and later, perhaps film) than to the actual practices, today or yesterday.

-Andy

Re: may we develop this thought?

Dean J in MN

>In addition to evidence of the carving being out-sourced, I say there is little (if any) evidence that the appretice did all the "grunt" work.

It was in the best economic interest to get the apprentice up to speed on real work as quickly as possible. This was free labor, you don't waste free labor on the trival stock prep. You build their skills quickly and have them build things for you. Operations that make no sense in a cabinetmakers shop probably weren't done there. For example, they probably didn't make 1/2 inch stock from 4/4 lumber. They just purchased the stock at 1/2 inch from the yard. It is interesting to note that secondary woods were available in "useful" sizes. 1/2" pine for example. So, resawing was left to saywers who had the tools to handle such tasks. Thicknessing stock was probably not a common task. That leaves basic face jointing. This is a fast operation, you need not have the other face parallel for all the pieces in your project. So, depending on the item, you may never touch that other face. And if you need it parallel, you probably don't need every board the same thickness -- so just find the minimal amount to remove for that board. These old shops were driven by economics, just like a modern professional. What we hobbiest do really doesn't reflect the economic pressure they had on them. Try to build a piece by hand as quickly as the 18 C shops did -- you'll find what you can (must) skip, what you "outsource." So, perhaps that bandsaw set up to resaw is your local saywer. I wish I could buy 1/2" pine at my local yard, I can't, so I have to act as my own sawyer at times. And without a pit I struggle, but I also realize this isn't somthing a cabinetaker would have done in his shop.

-Dean

Hobby!

Paul Kierstead

>Oh good lord, just as a hobby! Business, that is a very different beast....

This may help in getting it

Bill Tindal, E.TN

>This is about half my lumber storage. We live in the heart of Appalachian hardwood lumber production and my raw material is often bought as logs and sawed to specification. I hope to be able to turn all this lumber into furniture and other stuff. see next picture....

whoops, the PIC

Bill Tindal, E.TN

>hit the wrong key

second PIC with further explaining

Bill Tindal, E.TN

>This is the start of the side panels and top for the recently posted chest. Pieces were rough cut to length from these boards (with hand saw because it is quickest). In this case the lumber was much too wide to flatten on my jointer so high corners were clipped with hand plane and lumber sent through planer to thickness as thick as it would clean up one side and mostly clean up the other (about 15/16"). All that took a few minutes. Next edges were jointed on jointer and parts sawed to finished width on table saw. Again a few minutes. Boards were wide enough for panels without gluing so these pieces were now ready to cut to finish length and raise the panel. The top would be two edge glued pieces. These were jointed and into the clamps, again in a few minutes.

I took 2-3 hours to select the lumber for these parts and lay out cuttings. This is an activity I enjoy. From there to two side panels and a top ready to shape, fit and finish was no more than an hour. This is an activity that I regard as a means to an end. I have prepared hundreds of panels and there is no longer any challenge to do so. The fun begins with shaping, fitting and finishing these parts into the chest. It should now be apparent that a jointer and planer saves me a huge amount of time on a task that I don't find rewarding (apprentice work).

It is not my place to judge how others spend their time. But for a project like the chest, a jointer, planer and table saw helps me to breeze through the unskilled parts of this project and get on to the challenging parts-designing, shaping, fitting and finishing. There is about 60 bd ft of finished walnut in the chest and 100 bd feet of secondary wood, and more than100 individual parts in all. Someone skilled in working without hand tools can do the estimates as to how much time it would take to prepare these parts from rough lumber. I know it took many more nights to design, shape, fit, and finish.

I am so pleased with the tall chest that I will now make two low companion chests for beside the bed. Even with the help of machines this will take me half a year.

Nice stash!

Paul in NJ

>That is more hardwood lumber than I see in some yards.

Paul Dzioba

Boy do I ever get it now!

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>

Re: whoops, the PIC

Paul Kierstead

>Well now, Bill, if I had a stash like that I just go out and buy a 8 or 10" jointer and be done with it. That is one very nice stash. Alas, around here, wood is a very major investment.

Reconsider the footprint of that bigger jointer

Ellis Walentine

>I don't mean to promote power tools here, but Denis mentions the space taken up by a larger jointer. Fact is that regardless of the size of your jointer, the footprint, which includes infeed and outfeed space, is practically the same for a 6" and a 12" jointer.

I advocate for common sense in woodworking: you do what you need to to get the job done. A jointer can save a world of woe for someone who is physically or otherwise unable (or unwilling) to flatten a bunch of timber by hand, and that's okay, by me at least.

Cheers,

Ellis

Well...

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Footprint-wise when in use, you're right, an 8' board will require the same infeed and outfeed space regardless of the jointer used. Still, when the jointer is not in use, if you have a small shop and roll out the jointer only when needed, then size and weight become an issue when it comes to storage.

Disregarding machine width for the moment, a 76" long jointer compared to a 47" one (typical 6" jointer bed length), that's enough space for a storage cabinet, a floor drill press, etc.

I guess that in the end I'd like both the mega jointer and a shop large enough to house it :-)

DC

Re: Pull the tail

ThomD

>I have an 8" General jointer that I rarely use because it's so hemmed in.

3 things to consider for the hobby guy are:

1) with or without a planer? With a paner in the shop, you can just hit the high point of twist etc.. and then tumble the board through the planer, a jointer is rarely needed.

2) Whenever you acquire of de-aquire a tool something will end up compensating. SO if you buy a powerful wood lathe, but no bandsaw, extractor or grinder, most of you "turning" sessions will consist of hand sharpening tool, cutting up blanks and swweping up shaving. So you have to look at these ballance issues, but I think in many case the Jointer will not harm you for it's absence or pressence. I actually do most of my jointing by hand, if the edge is terrible I hit it with a saw first.

3) Power tools are really the struggle betweem productivity and the hobby side of things. If you need to acheive result, either because you are a pro, or you have a very large hobby, then you need a lot of help. But if you are doing it for fun then who cares what happens when you drop tools.

I prefer the British approach where they call the "Jointer" a "planer" and the primary work saving is in straightening the first side, not edge jointing. The "planer" is called the "thicknesser".

The correct terms hint at the labour savings a little more vividly.

Why not just take the "plug" off the cord for a while and see how you feel about the whole thing.