Getting rid of the power jointer.

Re: Getting rid of the power jointer.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I used power tools extensively in several ww classes at the local community college. There weren't any good workbenches for hand tool work like jointing and planing, they were all what I'd consider big assembly tables, no dog holes, piles of clamps though. Anyhow, the jointers (there were 4 or 5 of them) were always getting out of adjustment, especially the fence to bed angle and the blades always needed sharpening. The planers were giant snipe makers that I found exceedingly boring to use. So when I set up my shop I never even considered buying either one (whereas I did buy table and band saws, router, and a mortising machine that I almost never use). I don't miss them at all, really think they take more time with setup and adjustment stuff and incremental adjustments in use than hand tools. Maybe if I were making piles of big tables I could be convinced.

Pam

Re: Getting rid of the power jointer.

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>I've never had jointer or planer. Here in Houston it is easy for me to buy wood that is surfaced two or three sides at a very inexpensive rate. One day I started calculating how much wood I would have to joint and plane by machine to justify buying these two tools. I based it on the cost saved by buying the wood unsurfaced. I would have to be a professional to justify the cost. My handtools get the job done without the noise, expense, sawdust, etc.

Re: Getting rid of the power jointer.

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Under-utilized tools? That's all I have! :-)

Seriously, though, that's something I've been thinking about for a while. My tailed jointer is a 6" model, but I'd much prefer having one sized similarly to my planer, 12" or so. But the space requirements for such a beast (never mind the price for the moment) kind of nix that thought for now...

Although I have all the hand tools needed for jointing boards by hand, what keeps me from ditching my tailed jointer for now is the thought of having to joint by hand a bunch of boards to make a 3 x 8' table top. Past a certain point doing it by hand becomes somewhat less fun...

My $0.02,

DC

Gogod points - I agree.

vlparisian in Houston

>Sweat takes all the fun out of some exercises.

Victor in Houston.

Re: Getting rid of the power jointer.

Norman (Ottawa, Ont.)

>I can see some validity in your post Paul.

If you're doing on off pieces where the process is just as interesting as the final product, there is logic to this as time is not as much a issue for you.

Were you thinking of keeping a thickness planer?

If so, all you really need to do is prepare one face and one edge

and you can move to the planer. The edge I do by hand now anyway,

and the face in many cases is reasonably true and simply needs to

be flattened..

One option is to unplug the jointer and try living without it for 6 months. It would be an interesting experiment.

Regarding the move away from machinery, today I try to determine if it is feasible to prepare a piece of wood by hand and not blindly use a machine. In many cases, it is quicker by hand if you consider set up time of a machine, etc.

Machines are great for production runs, repetability,etc.

Norman

Oh, I don't mind the workout that much

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Actually I could use some more...

But at some point it becomes a time issue, and shop time is scarce in my case, so it's more a matter of getting things done as quickly as possible.

DC

Re: Getting rid of the power jointer.

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I went to a neighbor's funeral yesterday and among the many hands I shook was that of my friend Joseph. Until then, I had forgotten that he was missing a piece of his index finger, the result of a jointer accident around 1984. Come to think of it, the two nearest neighbors across the street have each been missing a small piece of a pinkie for more than 30 years. My friends Amos and Jake each injured fingers in their late seventies after a lifetime of careful work. None of these people seem to mind their losses, but I think I would.

Shop downsizing

jim reed @ tallahassee

>My favorite power tool is the BS followed by the jointer. When I was forced to downsize my shop I had to sell my jointer and other large tools. My good luck cloud followed and I was able to replace the jointer for $75 (delivered!). It rarely runs, and I have many suitable jointer planes to replace it with. So I do not have experience in having to do without. I don't think I would like jointing by hand when a five second run down the track gives me a perfect edge. It also works like a planer to make some 1/2" stock quickly.

Re: Getting rid of the power jointer.

Dean J in MN

> Is it practical?

Speaking as someone who has never had a jointer (or planer, or ...) I can't see why not. I manage to build tables, beds, chests, workbenches, ...

You'll find yourself changing your work habits I would guess. I spent a little time in a professional's workshop, and and the end he put things very well by saying, "The only thing we have in common is we both work with wood." This is a guy who feeds his family with his work. I really thought the gap between the mindset of a period geek and a power tool guy was a thin line. What I found was the grand canyon. He just couldn't understand why I didn't 4-square every board in a project. I couldn't figure why he was thicknessing everything. I gave him a marking gauge as shop-warming gift -- He thanked me and put it on the shelf. Stuff like that.

So, of course you can work without a power jointer, but if you want to get done "quickly" (pratically?) you'll change the way you work (and it sounds like you are in that very process).

Cheers!

-Dean

Power tool dudes

jim reed @ tallahassee

>Power tool guys simply do not understand--they live in a different world of wood. I have a buddy who does cabinets for a living. His eyes glaze over when I mention hand planes. Just not a part of his world.

Re: Getting rid of the power jointer.

Frank D. in Montreal

>Hi Paul,

I like Norm's suggestion of unplugging it for 6 months and seeing if you can go without it. I think the real question is if it's practical enough for you. I don't have a jointer and I'm happy with that, but I do have a power planer which I drag out every year or two for big projects that I just want to get done (like 50 feet of fencing from rough cedar). So I do almost all of my dimensioning and surfacing by hand, but I also have a bandsaw and a table saw. I think it's up to each of us to draw the line as to when and for what we want to stop using power tools. I personally don't think of them as opposites. I use whatever I feel like, going from hand to power tools, for all kinds of reasons. Skills are fine, and I want to have as many as possible, but acquiring them usually isn't my first concern (I don't make things so I can learn how to use hand planes; I end up learning how to use planes because I make things).

I'll be the 3rd one...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>In this post that doesn't own a jointer of planer, powered that is. Sure one day space permitted I like to have one, but I get by with out one just fine. If needed I could always take my wood to a local cabinet shop or lumber yard and have them do it.

let me digress...

Darrell in Oakville

>I have never owned a power jointer. Never felt I was lacking anything by not owning one. It's all in how you approach the work. When working by hand, you pay close attention to face side and face edge, and the off sides get only the work they need to make them presentable in their context. Sometimes this means a rough swipe with a jack plane (like for the inside face of a table apron or the unseen face of a drawer back). Sometimes you need to make both faces smooth, and sometimes the piece must be four-squared.

It was a real eye-opener for me when I followed along reading about Adam's Challenge (search the Hand Tool Archives). I wanted to join in, but my elbow kept me out of the shop for a while, and The List was already too long to add more projects...

I applied some of what I gleaned from the experiences related on this forum to a project of my own, eventually. A wall hung book shelf. The depth of the unit was the width of my board. This eliminated a lot of jointing and planing because I didn't have to do a glue-up. The inside faces of the ends (chosen as face side) were planed flat but the off sides were just planed smooth. There was 3/16 inch difference in thickness between some points on the two ends, and it doesn't show at all. The shelf itself had the top surface as the face side, planed flat. The off side was smooth, but not parallel to the face side. It isn't noticeable and made no difference to the joinery. The layout was all done from the face side & edge so it all went together very nicely. I was amazed at how easy and fast it was to build this shelf. That was due to not having to *thickness* plane anything.

Same story for my daughter's book shelf. I used a sash fillister to cut a rebate on the ends of the shelves to leave a tongue to fit the dado. The sash fillister is set up the *leave* a specific amount of wood, unlike most rabbet planes that are set up to remove a specific amount of wood. Thus, because the face sides of the shelves were flat, the joinery was precise, and it all fit together perfectly, even though the shelves all varied in thickness by about 1/8 inch.

What were we talking about? Oh yes, power jointers. As I said, I've never owned one. But you can have by bandsaur and thickness planer when you pry them from my cold dead hands. When a lot of wood needs to be thicknessed I resort to the planer. The stock is face jointed by hand just enough to provide a good reference for the planer. Once the noisy part is over, the smoother cleans up the mess the planer left. Lots of ridges, probably due to only changing blades once in 12 years.

Bottom line is Yes, jointing by hand is practical, but you should look closely at what you are doing to avoid excess work.

Darrell

Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User

Re: Getting rid of the power jointer.

Kevin Adams

>Hi Paul--

I used to have a beautiful Inca 10" jointer/planer. Did a fantastic job, but I went "organic" several years ago and sold it off. Used the proceeds to get some nice hand tools and invested in a class or two so I could learn how to use them better. I am an amateur and do not make my living from building furniture, but I really don't miss that jointer.

I think anything less than a 10 or even 12" jointer isn't worth it anyway. In my mind, a 6" jointer is really only good for edge jointing and I can honestly do that just as fast with a couple of hand planes. Yes, flattening the face of a wide board does take more time, but as Darrell says, it doesn't have to be caliper-perfect either. (And hey, Darrell, I'm finally building that pole lathe and if all goes well, will sell off the power lathe next!)

I still recall reading an article in FWW several years ago by the famous Welsh chairmaker, John Brown, where he challenged people to give up their power tools by a certain date. It was a great article and really struck a note with me. I have found it to be a much more rewarding way to work wood and I believe safer, too. You will be amazed at how much better you get at solving problems when you aren't just ramming a chunk of wood into a machine. I vote that you cover the jointer up for 6 months or so and see how it goes. Keep the thicknesser if you have one and do the face planing by hand.

Good luck and have fun.

Kevin

role of machines-apprentice work

Bill Tindal, E.TN

>I use machines to do what apprentices did in days of old. I don't get much satisfaction from apprentice work and that includes flattening and edging lumber. Lack of a jointer (and table saw and planer) would result in fewer completed projects a year from my shop or anyone elses. Designing, fitting and finishing ever more complex projects is where I want to spend my shop time and family and friends enjoy the results. But if one doesn't mind spending time doing rote work, of course furniture can be made with out machines, just as it was 200 years ago, slowly.

I don't understand Pam's experience. After I install a set of knives I don't touch the jointer adjustments for several years until it is time for sharper knives. And a properly adjusted planer does not snipe. In fact the surface should be smooth enough to paint right off the machine.

Interesting so far!

Paul Kierstead

>I am inspired by the number not using one; already it is more then I expected. A couple of clarifications:

- I didn't make it clear in the original (too much stream of consciousness I think); for quite some time I have been doing without the jointer for any time when the single session goal (i.e. the component I was working on) had less then 15 pieces to flatten/joint. Probably about a year now. Except for the odd bad day, I can edge joint fairly quickly to a reasonable tolerance. Face planing is also not bad.

- I do use a thickness planer and bandsaw. I'm not even close to prepared to give them up. I love them dearly. Well, ok, I hate the thickness planer, but I have thicknessed by hand a few times and I was most unhappy. I still do when the length is under 12", but that is usually a mistake....

- Certainly getting more final product is not my goal. I like *making* things, not having things which I made. Dunno if that makes any sense. I deeply enjoy working with my hands and having a ... 'connection' (hope that doesn't sound overly mystical) with my work.

For me, having one changes my attitude to my work. I know that will baffle some people, but just putting one in the corner vrs. not having one at all is different for me (well, I think it is different for all people, but it is definitely different for me). I think the only way I can really up the skill level is to get rid of it, but the uncertainty... still, I just might.

Many thanks for the answers so far!

Re: Getting rid of the power jointer.

Paul Kierstead

>Skills are fine, and I want to have as many as possible, but acquiring them usually isn't my first concern (I don't make things so I can learn how to use hand planes; I end up learning how to use planes because I make things).

This is an interesting area. I think it is somewhat just a semantic issue, but could be also an approach issue.

I don't want the skills for just the skills sake (though that is interesting too); I just am convinced that WW should be approached like other skilled things; you need to develop the skills to have the best result. So a golfer must practice his swing and work on it to better his game. He must also play. Sometimes he has to -- perhaps -- play sub-optimally to work on some part of his game that will improve it in the long run. So when Tiger shakes up his swing, he is angling for the long run. I think we should make conscious decisions to improve our game by improving our skills, and not just incidentally, but by a concerted effort. And enjoy the process!

Re: Power tool dudes

Bruce, a MN Galoot

>My ex BIL owns a very successful cabinet shop. He thinks the best tool for evening out face frames is his 3 X 21 belt sander. He had absolutely no idea what a block plane was.

Bruce

fourth...

Bruce, a MN Galoot

>never had one, but not getting one until I can find one like David Marks'.

bruce

apprentice work

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>One of the things apprentices did in days of old was learn to use planes and saws and chisels. It seems as though today many feel they can

learn to use these tools in a few days once they learn the "tricks". I think a large volume of work is needed to use them in a neat and efficient manner.

I have read that often each bench had its own set of bench planes and I think everybody in a shop partipated in stock preparation. The master had an obligation to teach the whole trade, not just use the fellow for labor. The apprentice was bound so that he stayed around long enough to give a return to the master for his teaching.

One vote for keeping the jointer

wilbur

>It makes a handy place to rest your hand planes, second only to a tablesaw. :@)

One more for the pot (a bit longish)

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>So many cooks .. you cannot use all these ingredients. Many good and reasonably reasons either way. Which are relevant to you?

Paul, it seems as though you have already made up your mind to rid yourself of the power jointer and that you are just looking for some support in this regard.

My own view is that, given the room in your workshop, I'd unplug it and stick it in a corner, waiting for a time when you need to do a massed amount of jointing. I consider this is the value of a machine such as this - when the balance between enjoyment and tedium is tipped in the latter direction.

I do not now - or have ever - owned nor even used a power jointer. Frankly the thing scares me. I did once have a power hand plan, and it was a relief to sell it (that was a decade ago). If this sounds a contradiction to my advice (above) I must quickly add that I have been re-thinking my neurosis and would like to buy one in the future. Why? Because I have some large scale projects at home and will need to prepare a lot of timber (out of salvage yards).

Even though I am quite adept at preparing boards with hand planes, and obviously have done it this way for many years, I would not consider myself to be a pure Neanderthal since I make use of power tools as part of the preparation process. I have a 12" tablesaw with sliding table. It gets used to rip and crosscut wide, thick boards. I am happy to crosscut smaller boards with handsaws, and indeed that is my preference. The tablesaw gets little use really, and it mostly servesasa worktop, but I will not get rid of it since it will always have a productive place in the workshop (albeit infrequent). The other powertool I rely on is the bandsaw. I do not seen myself re-sawing by hand (unless it is small stuff, which again I do). Several months ago I purchased a thicknesser (as it is referred to in OZ, thickness planer to you). I have used it a few times. It is a marvellous tool, and I wonder at the precision. But most of the time it lies in the corner as I do not need it ... yet .. it is waiting for that big job that will be coming up this year.

Since woodworking is just a hobby, and time is not a big issue, the small qualities of timber that I process (in preparation) for each project do not amount to a lot of handwork. So I generally look forward to it, and I can later take satisfaction that I saw it through from beginning to end. There is absolutely no way that I would consider working this way if I did not have time on my side. I think then that I would wind up doing a lot more machine work, and I can understand why the pros consider handtools such archaic methodology. It is simply unproductive. But this is not really the issue here, is it? I suspect that we are talking about pride ... the pride in developing and using handskills. There is a tendency among us to look down on power tools and powertool users as lacking moral fibre... Personally, I prefer handtools because I enjoy the kinesthetic feedback (of a chisel paring a dovetail joint, or a smoother making shavings), and the delicate finemotor control in cutting and tuning a joint. For some, however, it is the destination and not the road that is desired, and they may not understand what turns me on.

Whether the jointer lies in the corner or whether you get rid of it the issue is really that you appear to want to develop handskills. If you fear the temptation is poses, one answer is not to aim for perfection all the time, and to allow yourself the time to fix your mistakes (if anything, this is my area of expertise!).

Hoping that you make a comfortable decision ..

Regards from Perth

Derek

Somehow...

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>I can just picture Paul lying down on a couch while you provide advice... "Tell me about your childhood"... :-)

DC

Nothing here intended to rub anyone the wrong way, I just happen to know Paul, and Derek's day job...

RE My experience

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>It was a school, filled with mostly beginning students and teachers who aren't likely paid enough to spend the time adjusting the machinery any more than they had to to get through the next class. Also, it's a community college, so the only machinery they could afford for the most part was the likes of General and Grizzly.

If I were to get a jointer and planer, they'd probably be precise, huge, and European. I have neither the shop, the money, nor the desire to devote to obtaining, maintaining, and servicing such tools.

Pam