Building a jointer - opinion sought

Have you ever tried to saw a blade mounting slot?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

I meant amateur planemakers, Ed.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: OK, are your saw handles laminated?

mikew

>I've been asked to make some handles which basically would be considered plywood made from exotics for the durability and stability in use in inclement weather situations. Won't bother me a bit.

Now, I may remark they are made in X visual style, be it Peace, Disston or Kenyon, just not the same construction methods. For the situation, it will make for a longer lasting handle.

So?

Take care, Mike

No, have you?

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>

Re: OK, are your saw handles laminated?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I meant making your handles from two pieces of wood, not a single piece of high quality plywood. I wouldn't spend a small bundle on such a saw. I have to admit that the handles I make for my Japanese saws are from split stock, mainly because I don't have a blade suitable to make the blade slot; but then they're glued and wrapped, not just glued.

A quality saw is a thing of beauty, and anything that detracts from that beauty, such as a glue line down the middle of the handle, also detracts from my user experience.

Pam

Yes.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I found it quite difficult to get that slot just right. I think it would be a lot easier to split the handle and carve out the recess; but as I said to Mike, there's no way I'd pay a premium for a split handled saw.

Pam

OK... Question for mikew

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>If it's not a trade secret, I'd like to know how you saw the slot in the handle. I can think of many ways, I'm just curious at to what method you use...

If it is a trade secret, then I'll respect that.

DC

Re: OK... Question for mikew

mikew

>Hi Denis--nothing too secret about making saws.

It depends on the sawplate which will be fit. If the plate is .018" to .028", it begins with a vertical mill basically cutting the extents of the slot around the entire cheek from the bottom up into where the back's mortise ends. This cut on the mill is made using a saw blade which cuts a kerf the exact thickness of the blade to be fit. This kerf extends up to 1/2" into the handle, give or take. It is then sawn the remainder of the way by hand. Think of this starter kerf as a deep scribe line.

If the mill is in use slotting the solid brass backs [we make both traditional folded and solid slotted backs] then I will simply use a slitting gauge and saw them in. Consequently, I have saws which I have made using thinner gauge steel than the blades they will be used for so when the set is added, the slot equals the blade thickness to be installed. For example, I use a .016" blade with a skosh over 1 thou set to cut slots for .018" blades, another with 2 thou to each side for the .020" blades, one made from .020" with about 2.5 thou of set for the .025" blades, etc.

On .030" and thicker plates I have sharpened and set bandsaw blades to equal the thickness of the plates we use. A jig holds the handles in the proper relation to the face of the blade so that when an extent is reached on the top, where we can see the stop line, it is correct on the bottom. If the angle needs tweaked a bit, it is done with a handsaw which cuts the proper width kerf to alter the back and or angle of the kerf.

Make sense? Probably easier to show than describe.

Take care, Mike

Re: OK, are your saw handles laminated?

mikew

>Hi Pam,

Variety and difference of opinion is why we all have a multitude of options. Helps make life more interesting.

Earlier when you merely mentioned laminated handles, it was unclear as to the number of laminations.

Whereas I will gladly make the handle I described for its intended purpose, I would probably choose to avoid making one which was merely comprised of two pieces.

But would I help someone make one that way if that is what they wanted to do? Sure. I would tell them all they needed to do. I know this because I have.

Would I think it was intrinsically or practically inferior? I don't think so. And I don't think it would be. It just may not meet my aesthetic goals or desires.

Take care, Mike

Aesthetics

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Would I think it was intrinsically or practically inferior? I don't think so. And I don't think it would be. It just may not meet my aesthetic goals or desires.

Would be interesting to make a two layer handle, or maybe three layer to more closely approximate the laminated planes, and use the saw for a while, just to see what if anything happens.

Would also be interesting to determine why something neither instrinsically nor practically inferior can be aesthetically offensive.

Pam

Re: thoughts on laminations

John H. in Baltimore

>Hi Pam.

I've recently begun making wooden planes and have thought about the lamination issue quite a bit.

As I recall, C&W has an article, which lauds the qualities of one-piece planes, and somewhat criticizes the characteristics of laminated planes.

My take on the lamination issue is that:

1) Traditional adhesives (e.g., hide glue) were not as good as today's. Therefore lamination wasn't a viable option in the 18th and 19th centuries.

2) Lamination may (perhaps I should use might) slow down the migration of moisture and the prompt attainment of EMC. However, in climate controlled shops, this shouldn't be as much of an issue. Also, the majority of moisture transits through end-grain, not long-grain.

3. Lamination might offer better grain orientations to relieve stress and distortions such as cupping. How many check-riddled beeech planes does one see in antique stores?

Isn't your ECE a laminated plane (although not horizontally) since it has a sole of either lignum vitae or hornbeam? Also, as far as I know, Knight toolworks' reputation is top notch and at least some of their planes have ipe soles.

Also, if Krenov-style laminations are problematic, why wouldn't laminated soles be similarly problematic. For instance, wouldn't a laminated sole also add stress and potential distortions to the body during humidity changes?

I don't see any particular reason why a mortised solid woodie is necessarily superior to a laminated woodie. I don't know the origin of your laminated planes (were they commercial products?), so I can't assess whether their performance problems were an issue of craftsmanship or design (i.e., lamination).

I believe making either type of plane requires a considerable degree of precision. Therefore, I think they both belong here.

Please don't consider my post a retort, just a brain dump on the things I've been considering as I dive into to making a set of wooden planes.

Regards,

John

yowza! How far . . .

John H. in Baltimore

>is the mouth from the front (or should I say bow) of the plane. I have one in the works and am trying to collect some measurements.

What a nice piece of lumber.

Thanks!

John

Re: thoughts on laminations

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Logically, I agree; from the empirical, I disagree. I have no idea why the ECE sole lamination works, but it does, perfectly (I have the reformed jointer, have used the reformed smoother). The only planes I own that have twisted or otherwise deformed themselves are a couple of laminated planes. Now, a couple or three dai blanks have twisted/cupped, but these were ones not as carefully air dried as the others (they were also substantially cheaper by orders of magnitude).

I still think that if I were to go to all the trouble of making a 26-36" long jointer, including buying a blade (I seldom use a subblade), that it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to do my best to find a large enough piece of wood that would accommodate a chopped mouth. But we haven't heard back from Derek on this, maybe he couldn't find that big piece of wood.

Pam

A little update ****

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>I had a couple of hours today in the workshop and managed to finish off a few items. The lever cap is complete and installed (with screws I shaped). I have made most of the lever cap screw (the one in the picture is temporary). The body was glued together (this was done on a flat, glass plate/lapping board - see picture). Later I trimmed off the excess at the 30" mark.

For those wanting to know, the mouth is set 14" back from the front. Like the HNT Gordon, it hasa brass wear strip.

The picture below is just to give an idea of the proportion of the blank. The razee body has yet to be cut. I have propped a Stanley tote in roughly the area where i expect a tote to go. The one I make will be larger, a four-finger grip.

Here it is alongside my #7.

Balance is the key element in a plane this size and heft. My plane is to complete all but installing the tote, then balance the plane on a fulcrum and place the tote where it balances it in the horizontal. The razee will remove some of the bulk at the rear, so I expect the tote to be about where I have placed it, perhaps a little further to the rear.

With regards the reason for the laminated construction, as Pam queried, frankly it did not occure to me to do it any other way. I do not think I have the skills to chop out a solid piece. As it was, I did have a large piece of Jarrah....

.... but there were checks that I needed to cut out, and this left just enough timber for the main section and the two cheeks.

I have been keeping a good record of the progress of this plane - many pictures - and I will put together an article for critique at a later stage.

I shall only be able to get back to the plane this weekend. Until then..

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, what's the drive-by in the background?

Ian (in Sydney, Australia)

>

Re: Building a jointer - opinion sought

ThomD

>I've built quite a few planes either laminated or chopped, and I don't see much difference. One thing about the chopped is that ultimately they are faster to build. For a newbie the idea of precisely chopping out the whole thing seems intimidating. But once you work it out it's a lot faster to chop it. At the extreme you have that Japanese machine that gross mortises the plane in a few seconds. Compare that to resawing and planing. Gluing with historic glues and clamps, indexing holes, etc... Why bother.

I have also built a variety of planes with the different geometries relative to the mid-point blade position vs. a tendency towards either endand mostly what that taught me is that it's not all that critical to the cut. There are format issues on the smaller planes, how to get all the parts smushed in, and ballance issues. There are issues relative to what circular circumference is dictated by say a 30" plane bottom with a mid blade projection or one near either end, and that stuff is relative to the dialed in cut, but the difference is only about 10% in this example. With 2 thou. blade projection it's a 56 000" radius vs. 50 000" for central blade position vs. 10" in from either end on a 30" plane. I actually thought it would be a bigger difference.

Re: Derek, what's the drive-by in the background?

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Hi Ian

You'll have to be more specific than that! :)

There are a few newish items in the armoury (mentioned before now)... Bronze LN #4 1/2 (I will eventually get around to a comparison with the iron version), an anniversary present from my wife, and a wonderful set of Blue Spruce chisels (I may do a write up on those as well), that were a birthday present in January. Oh, and a bunch of NOS Koyamaichi dovetail chisels that I recently picked up very cheaply on eBay. Otherwise not worth mentioning... :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: OK, are your saw handles laminated?

ThomD

>Well the japanese ones are, really glued up, not laminated, but close. My boats sure are, gun stocks, lamination equals stability, but not in this application. Laminated soles are probably a mild negative. You can build Krenov style planes where the central cubes are totaly isolated with epoxy for greater stability. I don't think there is much problem resawing a block and then re-assembling it with glue, if the glue is strong. It's mostly a mater of it being really easy to do in the tropical hardwoods Krenov originally pushed for planes. But he has moved away from those, and I don't see much point resawing maple.

I was refering to

Ian (in Sydney, Australia)

>the Jarrah (?) semi-circle at the back of the bench

part of another demilune table perhaps?

I'm off to bed

take care,

Ian

Re: Apologies for jumping in...

ThomD

>I'm not sure there is a gain in construction efficiency. There is probably a gain in efficiency for some tropical hardwoods, particularly for plane makers not set up with modern machinery to make planes. So to review, in the day, mortising was probably more efficient in the hands or competent workers than hand resawing planing drilling and gluing with then existing tools.

Flash forward to modern power tools and the edge may still be for mortising. If your idea of the ideal power mortising machinery isn't a table saw and a bandsaw, but a properly constructed inclined plane mortiser. Then split it into Japanese where post rough-in 80-100% of the fitting is either done by hand regardless, or parts of it left up to the end user, mortising is clearly faster. For something like the C&W, if they had proper machinery mortising would probably be faster,particularly with all those clever floats that make leveling internal surfaces so easy.

Would Knight be faster with resawn, well he has several variations, one is the woods can be dark to hide the glue line, and he can power saw the abutments. If he was properly set-up, he might be faster with a mortising machine and floats, gluing is no picnic, particularly if you use the kinds of glues with great long term hold on tropicals.

Speaking of the deficiencies of "lamination", what about the infil plane. If you can get away with that circus of mismatched materials...

Re: thoughts on laminations

ThomD

>"1) Traditional adhesives (e.g., hide glue) were not as good as today's. Therefore lamination wasn't a viable option in the 18th and 19th centuries."

Probably some truth in that, though hide glues are generally superior in holding power to the main glues, white and yellow that are available today, they are also a lot more water and heat resistant than is generally assumed. We have lots of hide glue instruments that survived as well as many that needed regluing, but then I don't knows how consistant their ratings were. Because of the very low telerance for non-novelty among hand tool owners, the need for long term durability seems more formal than real.

"2) Lamination may (perhaps I should use might) slow down the migration of moisture and the prompt attainment of EMC. However, in climate controlled shops, this shouldn't be as much of an issue. Also, the majority of moisture transits through end-grain, not long-grain."

You can use glueing and laminating to control moisture probably better than any other option. The obvious option would be diamond wood planes, whether home made fine laminations or the Rutland product. Encapsulation is another options.

"Also, if Krenov-style laminations are problematic, why wouldn't laminated soles be similarly problematic. For instance, wouldn't a laminated sole also add stress and potential distortions to the body during humidity changes? "

Technically they are a disaster waiting to happen, a built in hydrometer, with no real justification other than that they look cool. The idea of gluing wood that comes delivered in a full wax encapsulation to a plane, is pretty crazy. While it seems stupid, I can't really point to any problems that have arisen in my ECEs, or personal planes. I did abandon the practice myself though, since it seemed of no real practical benefit. I think it's just one of those marketing things. If you are paying big bucks for a wooden plane it looks more durable and makes the plane seem like something that is a little harder for a punter to make.

"I don't see any particular reason why a mortised solid woodie is necessarily superior to a laminated woodie. I don't know the origin of your laminated planes (were they commercial products?), so I can't assess whether their performance problems were an issue of craftsmanship or design (i.e., lamination)."

I don't think they are necesarily superior, there is the claim that some woods have excellent moisture diffusion both via endgrain and laterally. Beech is particualarly mentioned. So there isn't a massive uptick to laminating that kind of thing. Then traditionally these planes where riven, while goodness only knows what is happening in a block of wood grown in the tropics where grain orientation is often a mystery due to no early and late wood. A block of cleanly finished beech or oak is really pretty, with chunks being almost rarer these days than laminations of tropicals. It's easier for me to buy some tropical pimp wood than find a block of riven beech of plane dimension.

In word...

John in New Mexico

>Subjectivity, if that is even really a word.

"Would also be interesting to determine why something neither instrinsically nor practically inferior can be aesthetically offensive."

The determination of practical inferiority would be objective based on success or failure in performance of the task for which it's designed.

Aesthetics determinations can never really be anything but subjective, even when they are influenced by practical performance.

I'd have to say "intrinsically inferior" would need to be more tightly defined to have any relevance to your point. Not to put too fine a point on it, how could being intrinsic help you determine something's state of inferiority or superiority?

John

Re: Aesthetics

mikew

>Just to be clear, I am not saying *I* believe it is an "aesthetically offensive" technique. Rather, not to my visual preference.

Do I think it can be done where the outcome could be pleasing to the eye? Even my eye? Sure. I imagine it could. Even so, it would not meet my goals and so I doubt I would make one.

Take care, Mike

I think they do have the edge in efficiency...

John in New Mexico

>As far as construction goes (couldn't get it all in the subject line).

Though I do not care for the style myself, prefering traditional wood planes, I have built one this way and it is super easy, especially for making a skewed bed. If you had to use hand tools for the task, then I'd agree that mortising would be easier.

John

Re: thoughts on laminations

John H. in Baltimore

>Thanks for your perspective Thom!

When you say wax encapsulated, do you refer to the natural proerties of a tropical, or an actual wax encapsulation? Also, what is diamond wood?