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foolproof dovetail marking

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foolproof dovetail marking

#1

foolproof dovetail marking

bill tindal, E.TN

>Background- I only have occasion to make dovetails few times a year. As a result reliability of technique is of greatest importance and speed is hardly a factor. Saving a few minutes when I only make a few a year is of no benefit and I am not too proud to use any crutch I can find if it helps to ensure success. Many amateur woodworkers could find themselves in this situation with any number of techniques they only use occasionally.

I found that the tail to pin transfer marking operation introduced the largest source of error in my dovetails. I experienced two problems. First, when using the techniques I have seen demonstrated, things often moved while marking the pins. Second, my drawers didn't always come out planar, as a result of not perfectly aligning the front to the side of the drawer during marking. Apparently I am not the only one experiencing this issue or the "crutch" of rabbiting the tail board would not have been demonstrated in the Cossman video.

Solution- The "crutch" shown in the PIC is quick to do and absolutely fool proof. The angle block can be a previously made dovetail right angle, or a piece of angle "iron" as shown in the picture. It does not have to be exactly at right angles, but its legs must be in a plane. (when I cut this piece of plastic angle stock one leg was off a few thousandths and I simply shimmed it with tape.) If its legs are planar and it sits on a level surface (table saw for example) the drawer front and side will be in a plane. Gentle tapping aligns the ends as perfect as one chooses. The clamps secure the piece for marking. I brace the piece between my knees and mark with a marking knife. The arrangement is so accurate that once I forgot to mark one pin and when I reassembled the pieces the previouly marked pin lines aligned perfectly with the tails.

It is both quick and foolproof, attributes I look for when I don't do something often enough to maintain profession proficiency with a crutch-free technique.


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Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#2

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

Kevin French

>Bill "Nothing is 'Foolproof', because Fools are SO ingenious."

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#3

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

Stuart Hough

>Bill,

Thanks! Ihave only done a few "test" dovetails. I'm not too proud to admit to a great fear of creating firewood the firs time I do one for a real live drawer...your method makes SO MUCH SENSE for a novice such as myself. Thank you again for sharing this!

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#4

Ditto Kevin...

vlparisian - Houston

>But he likely underestimates the ingenuity by a factor or at least 10!!

Victor - heading off for a few days.

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#5

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Bill

Bug Bear (Paul W) has a similar recommendation. He uses two mitre clamps to hold the boards together.

Perhaps BB will be along with a picture.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#6

Re: Ditto Kevin...

David Charlesworth

>Bill,

That is a good set up.

Bob Wearing shows something similar in "The Essential Woodworker" and I use a variation, held in the vice, with two small clamps on each board.

It will be shown in my chisel use DVD which will be available from Lie-Nielsen in the next few months.

David Charlesworth

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#7

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

paul womack

>Bug Bear (Paul W) has a similar recommendation. He uses two mitre clamps to hold the boards together.

Perhaps BB will be along with a picture.

It would be churlish to refuse such a kindly worded invitation.

the picture...

I'm happy to say the idea is now more widely adopted than when I wrote that page.

someone else's pic

another pic

BugBear

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#8

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

ThomD

>It's still just a mater of a feel for layout, where you feel comfortable with what your fingertips tell you. Like I only use sandpaper on fine woodwork accosionally, but I don't have to use some kind of planar scissor parallelogram, I can feel the flaws with my fingertip. I used to have trouble with getting things lined up on the base line since a tiny eror there is pretty severe, but not in a long time. Remember, they aren't dovetails it's just planing, sawing, and cutting to a line.

What I show beginers is just the usual block with sandpaper and square edges. Put that over the line and it takes a real fumble fingers to get it out of wack. I will use that for a chisel guide if the stakes are high enough, like a piece of wood that I cut out of a front that is already part of the piece, or some such.

Where I may use that kind of thing is if the board warps in the time it takes to get around to it. If i leave them and come back and the pins have warped then they need to return, or be returned, to a straight condition to make me happy.

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#9

Re: foolproof dovetail marking *LINK*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Some may also find these sprung Jet jointing clamps pretty handy for this job.

Pam


Jet Jointing Clamps

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#10

Tell Me About It

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont.

>Hi Kevin,

No kidding...I watched the Frank K video on making DT's and went out and made these.....

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

Chop Chop.......my first DT's........Thank God for #8 Roberston woodscrews..

:-)

Take care,

Jim

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#11

I'll claim several advanages

bill tindal, E.TN

>Disclaimer- I appreciate that no one is going to change from a method they have found successful. So, all my discussion is directed to someone that has not found a satisfactory solution yet.

Advantages of angle iron arrangement. (the "angle iron" could simply be two boards dovetailed together. In fact, a practice dovetail was my Rev.1)

1.It will flatten thin stock which invariably warps some by the time I get through a drawer project.

2. It is likely less hassle to set up. Tapping the board ends for perfect alignment is especially handy.

3. With the two pieces confidently resting on a planar surface (for example saw table top) there is less chance the drawer will be marked out of plane.

4. The clamps referred to by Pam will likely not be as secure. Once my clamps are secure I can move and orient the arrangement for best visibility for marking and this is as big an advantage as all the others.

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#12

Re: Ditto Kevin...

Mainely,Bob

>Cecil Pierce used the same approach for both marking and squaring up while gluing.He called them "Master corners".

MB

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#13

professional vs amateur approach, an editorial

bill tindal, E.TN

>I am going to use this response to your post to reemphasize a point. If I was dovetailing something once a week I would do it like Frank Klause, which would take 1/10th the time I currently take but require a level of skill, and practice, that I will never achieve. Frank's videos (to use an example) are entertaining but of no practical use to me. In fact, I would claim that they do a disservice to the developing amateur by proposing an approach that is unachievable to all but a few. For this reason I have become wary of all advice from professionals. Wary doesn't mean I dismiss such advice, but I also don't accept it as always the "best" way for amateurs. **This is a key point often lost on both teaching professionals and amateurs striving to make quality furniture. **

I should emphasize when I say amateur I don't imply less than professional results. There are many amateurs in our club whose results would compare favorably with any professional work, in this, or previous centuries. What differs are the techniques used and speed with which these results are achieved.

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#14

I tend to disagree

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>I see your point of view, but a guy like Klausz got to where he is by virtue of practice, practice, then some more practice. Not necessarily feasible by amateurs who don't have that much time to dedicate to learn the technique. But I think that we have to make time to learn "pro" techniques, it slows down things at first but over time you get back that time invested and a lot more.

I like Chris Schwartz' "A dovetail a day" piece in the Feb. issue of Pop Wood. By making one dovetailed corner every day for a month, he became better, faster and more precise (that almost sounds like the Six Million Dollar Man :)

I did something in the same vein while building my tool storage cabinet. There are 14 drawers in all, and I decided to dovetail them despite the fact that it would push back the completion date. I tried different approaches (Klausz, Cosman, the technique taught at Rosewood Studio, and finally settled on a hybrid of these techniques), made quite a few mistakes along the way, but in the end the last drawer took half the time that the first one took to dovetail, and the joints became tighter along the way. It was a worthy investment for sure, the next time I need to dovetail something that practice will pay for itself.

And I agree with you that there is and has been amateur work that is as good as anything done by pros. The only difference is that the pro can do it faster without sacrificing quality. I don't see pro advice and techniques (whatever that means) as a disservice to the amateur, neither does it put me down that someone can work twice as fast as I do. I just take it as a benchmark to strive for.

Best,

DC

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#15

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

Ernie Miller

>That works but I use a couple of them cheap corner clamps. one on each side they are easy to adjust if for some reason you aer off a little. I allways mark my corners also it is easier to fit part A to part A than it is part A to part C.

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#16

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

Ernie Miller

>I do mine like "someone elses pic" the only differance is I have the vertical board clamped in my vice so I can go straight to the saw.

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#17

In my case, I disagree......

bill tindal, E.TN

>Participating on the Forum has made me aware that there are people that are as interested in the process, if not more so, than achieving the product. I think under represented on this Forum are amateur woodworkers that are primarily motivated to make something useful, get it done, and get on to something else even more challenging. These latter folks are more like the professionals without the experience and in cases with less skill.

If one's goal is to be able to make perfect dovetails the way Frank does it, and one has the skill to do it, the practice to get there and maintain the proficiency may seem worth the effort. But for an amateur that needs a chest of drawers and wants to make them, Frank's approach is daunting, perhaps so much so that they will go buy a Keller jig. For me his approach is a goal I don't find worth the effort to achieve. I use this as an example of all sorts of techniques that require a high level of effort, skill and/or practice that I don' t find any benefit to mastering. I don't surface plane lumber with a hand plane and you should see how slow I am at installing a hinge, but with perfect results. On the other hand a shooting board, one of the most simple tools I ever mastered, has revolutionized my approach to fitting components rough cut with a table saw (thank you Woodcentral!).

Which brings us to teaching. Successful teaching of the results motivated amateur woodworker will be more successful if the techniques taught require less skill and practice when that is possible. The crutches provided by the Cossman dovetail videos are an excellent example, or the crutch that started this thread. We have taught many club members to make dovetails with the guidance of the Cossman videos, a task I would never have attempted with the Klause video.

I guess that leaves us with the thought that different people have different goals and hence, different paths to an end. It might help to explain my motivation to say that nearly all the furniture in my house as well as a good bit of the house itself I did. And there are endless additional projects yet to be done.

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#18

Re: In my case, I disagree......

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>We can agree to differ, but I'll just add that sometimes a technique can seem daunting until one gives it a try. I would not have attempted by myself to sharpen my tools freehand until I was kind of "forced" to do it as part of a course I took. To my surprise it wasn't that hard, a lot less than I feared. Now my sharpening jigs gather dust.

I think that lots of woodworkers underestimate themselves and their ability to do things. They will tend to stick to what's worked for them before, instead of giving the different approach a try. I'm as guilty as anyone on that respect, but I'm trying to shake that habit.

Your mileage may vary...

DC

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#20

this we can agree on

bill tindal, E.TN

>

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#21

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

Wiley Horne--So. Cal.

>Bill,

This is a great method. And it's well worth the set up time to get something right, that you're not likely to redo, and that will be in the family from now on. Might also add that getting the early steps right in a long sequential process, often saves time in the total build.

I believe the essence of your procedure is the dead flat surface you are using to register the board bottoms and ensure the bottom is all in a single plane. This is superior to a method which registers everything by eyeballing just the mating surfaces during marking.

For example, right now I'm looking a table beside me whose top drawer is 2-5/16" high and 16-3/4" deep. Suppose the transfer of marks is made using a method which does not force the drawer front and side to be in the same plane. A variation of only 1/128" in the two short sides (2-5/16") will cause the front and side to be out of planarity by almost 1/16" in the length. Calc: [16-3/4 divided by 2-5/16, the quantity multiplied by 1/128"]. And there are two sides to be marked, so the error could be doubled.

Now even if the parts are marked right, it's of course possible after all the sawing, chiseling, gluing and clamping to introduce other errors. This is why retesting the drawer in the early glueup on a flat surface is important. BUT. If the tails/pins transfer isn't marked with extreme precision, then even perfect work thereafter will have to be forced into a best compromise during glueup.

Excellent idea and excellent post.

Wiley

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#22

Hand Tools!

Paul Kierstead

>I think under represented on this Forum are amateur woodworkers that are primarily motivated to make something useful, get it done, and get on to something else even more challenging.

Well, this particular corner is the Hand Tools forum, so it would be hardly surprising that "get it done" is not the primary mantra. I am not saying hand tools aren't integral to getting it done, but a discussion dedicated to them and their use is probably not going to focus on efficient methods of achieving completed projects, for amateurs or pros. OTOH, I do agree with some of your premise on pro advice vrs. amateur advice.

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#23

Re: Hand Tools!

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>I am not saying hand tools aren't integral to getting it done, but a discussion dedicated to them and their use is probably not going to focus on efficient methods of achieving completed projects, for amateurs or pros

I don't see why not. True, hand tools can be fun to play with, but in the end they're often more efficient than power tools for one-offs, sometimes they're the only way to do a certain task.

Efficiency in construction does not preclude the use of hand tools...

DC

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#24

Re: Hand Tools!

Paul Kierstead

>I don't see why not.

You don't see why a forum restricted to the discussion of hand-tools and their use would not focus on efficiency? Seriously? Would you go to the turning forum and try to have a discussion on the most efficient way to build a dresser? It is a specialized forum, clearly.

Efficiency in construction does not preclude the use of hand tools...

Repeating my *own* quote:

I am not saying hand tools aren't integral to getting it done

Perhaps you just the "not" in there.

Re: foolproof dovetail marking

#25

Many times hand tools are the most efficient way.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

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