fitting drawers

What I do

jim reed @ tallahassee

>I make traditional primitive drawers. That means blind dovetail on front, dado on the back, and sliding bottom pin nailed to the back. Once the drawer frame is assembled I fit the bottom (no pin) and glue up the dado. Once dry, I test fit to the carcass. If trimming is needed (usually) then I remove the bottom and clamp the frame into the large side vise on my bench. Most of my drawer sides are 13/16". Most of my planes are set to take about 1/64". That means that 1/2" of drawer side is clamped into the vise and 3/8" is exposed for planing. Works well for me.

Re: fitting drawers

Andrew F in Australia

>HI Bill,

I think it's called a "drawer slave"

Just get two bits of wood about 6" wide by 20" long or so and clamp them across the benchtop so that they overhang about 6" or so. Distance between the two outside edges is the depth of the drawer

Put the drawer onto these and plane away.

I can't find a simple picture on the net, however.

Cheers,

Andrew

http://www.amgron.clara.net/drawers/drawerindex.htm

Re: fitting drawers

Ed Mulligan, Cape Cod

>Work from both ends toward the middle so you don't blow out the end grain pins.

For edges I either clamp the drawer in a vise or work up against a bench stop.

Ed

Ditto!

Paul Kierstead

>

Re: fitting drawers

Bruce, a MN Galoot

>This is exactly the arrangement I use, too. I also bump the far edge of the board up against a bench stop to help keep it in place.

Bruce

Here's one  *LINK*

Andrew F in Australia

>


http://www.google.com.au/search?num=100&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22drawer+board%22+side+plane&btnG=Search&meta=

Miscellany

Wiley Horne

>Coupla things. Ian Kirby on cases: make the rear of the case about 1/32" wider than the front.

The other thing I learned by myself: the most important part of drawer fitting is ensuring the straightness/flatness of the internal parts which will carry or contain the drawer. Especially true if the carcase side itself is a containing element. Every minute spent getting the internal environment right is worth about 10-20 minutes of head scratching and trying to figure out 'where is this drawer hanging up'? DAMHIKT, please.

Wiley

Ed Mulligan's posted a pic of the solution below

Andrew F in Australia

>

Re: fitting drawers

Sgian Dubh

>Well Bill, for absolutely top class traditional drawer making I charge eight hours per drawer. This is starting with random lengths of wood that have already been squared, cutting out the drawer front, sides and backs, followed by fitting these parts precisely to the drawer opening and knocking out the dovetails.

Then you have to make the slips, run the grooves in them and the back face of the drawer front, followed by making up the solid wood bottom, trimming it to length and width and slapping it into the grooves and fixing it up into the bottom edge of the drawer back.

The time also has an allowance for attaching a basic pull and final fitting of the drawer into the opening. I usually just grab the drawer in the vise and do the planing, or make up a board that hangs over the edge of the bench as others have suggested. That gives my answer to your basic question.

When there's a stack of drawers to do-- 6 or more- all at this premium standard, then the fact that a skilled maker is working repetively on essentially the same task then the charge for this type of drawer comes down to 6-1/2 hours each, so don't be too hard on your self.

Incidentally, the charge for fitting a traditional lock is extra, as is including such items as fancy veneering and cockbeads. It's very easy to have a drawer that might be charged out at 14- 16 hours depending just on how fancy it is.

I've been charging these rates since the early 1980's to paying clients and the figures are remarkably accurate and consistent. There are those that poo-poo the figures as too generous. Well, they do so until they try to make a living charging for this kind of work, and then they really find out how long jobs like this take. They discover they are consistently undercharging for their time and losing money on every job.

One reason the figures I use are good and consistent is that my estimating system makes an allowance for necessary and oft forgotten tasks such as sharpening and maintenance of tools along with looking after the workshop before, during, and after any task is done. Most people completely forget all those background tasks when they set up in business and seem to somehow assume that maintenance will do itself. It never has done, and never will. Slainte.

Re: fitting drawers

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Very informative, Richard. Would you say that it's somewhat faster to use thicker sides and plough grooves for the bottom? And I would guess that you never tell clients what they pay for each drawer, rather you quote the full price based on n number of drawers and other time consuming details. True?

Pam

Re: fitting drawers

Sgian Dubh

>Pam, it is faster because creating slips requires additional work over simply running a groove. The wood has to be planed up to start with. There's forming a moulding on the top edge towards the interior of the drawer, then a tenon at the front to go into the drawer front groove, and a notch at the back to go under the drawer back. And they have to be glued to the drawer side and flushed off.

I suppose you could set against that the extra work required to cut the dovetails in the US pattern of thick sides, but it is a bit marginal. Fine drawer sides in the UK are frequently only about 9- 10 mm thick (3/8") in large drawers (up to about 1 metre wide (39")) and perhaps only 6- 7 mm thick (1/4") in very small drawers.

This reminds me of a couple of the competitions I've been involved with as a judge here on WoodCentral Ellis has run. As a judge I was always struck by the inelegance of many of the competitor's drawers, especially small ones, with their thick clunky looking sides all out of proportion to the rest of the piece to my eyes. Still, I guess that's just my expectations having been brought up on drawers with a generally slender appearance, which is not the same as flimsy.

Grooving directly into a drawer side for the drawer bottom has always (in my experience) been thought of as naff in the UK, and reserved for cheap cabinetry, lesser work in general and for simpler country pieces. It just goes to show how different traditions and cultures develop.

You're right about not breaking out figures to clients. It's none of a clients damn business how much I charge for each process. It's none of their business how much I mark up my materials. All they need to know is how much the whole job costs delivered and installed in their location. If I go to buy a pair of shoes, a new car, or a can of paint I don't expect a breakdown of all the merchant's costs. All I need to know is how much they're asking for the product, and perhaps I'll haggle a bit if the mood takes me. I don't haggle for shoes and paint, but I'm a hell of a haggler when it comes to cars, ha, ha.

I suppose this diversion is a bit naughty. We're getting away from Bill's original question, which I think has been answered quite satisfactorily already. Slainte.

Re: fitting drawers

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I agree with you on the side proprotions relative to the drawer size, truly dislike thick sides on tiny drawers. One of the things that makes tiny drawers so precious is their thin sides. But then I always use a center wooden runner, which also helps support the bottom so the grooves don't have to be so deep. It also happens that I find the fitting is more trouble free with this center construction.

I also think that in the US most people don't like the slips' side obstructions, all the space they take from internal storage. I know I don't.

I'm about to start playing with using bamboo "nails" for the side to front/back connection rather than dovetails. If you or anyone has done this and has some tips, I'll appreciate it.

Pam

Re: fitting drawers

David Charlesworth

>Pam,

Top quality arts and crafts makers such as Edward Barnsley used flush slips, which take no storage space from the drawer.

These are even more time consuming than quadrant slips.

David

please explain "flush slips"

bill tindal, E.TN

>

Re: please explain "flush slips"

Sgian Dubh

>I think David means something like the patterns here. Slainte.

Re: fitting drawers

Sgian Dubh

>Pam, I think your queries about the slips and their intrusiveness (or not)inside the drawer space has been answered.

I know nothing about pinning drawers with bamboo. I do, however, know quite abit about constructing drawer sides to drawer fronts and backs with 'steel dovetails.'

Have you ever used this type of drawer joinery? They're fast, very efficient, and if the steel dovetail proportions are selected carefully, remarkably durable. I need one of those tongue in cheek emoticon thingies here, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.

Re: please explain "flush slips"

Sgian Dubh

>here's another sketch that might help. Slainte.

Re: fitting drawers

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Yeah, thanks, very interesting.

I bet you mean regular nails, which is how my current kitchen drawers are constructed. Amazingly enough, they've lasted 50+ years and probably would go another 50 if they had their druthers. Or my druthers.

Pam

Flush slips

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Thanks, David and Richard. I was thinking of something inbetween all these, say a very shallow groove to hide the bottom-to-side connection with a stick attached to the sides under the bottom. This seems that it would give sturdy and neat with a minimum amount of work, plus allowing thinner sides.

Pam

Re: Flush slips *LINK*

Andrew F in Australia

>Hi Pam,

I was in the middle of a reply when you put this post up.

The idea of the slip is to avoid running a groove in the drawer side, making the side notionally stronger, as well as allowing the slip to provide a wider bearing surface for the drawer as you allude to. Slips are designed as a replaceable item.

Some other profiles of slips were in the "Jeff Gorman" page that I linked to somewhere in this thread, and is now linked below again.

What you suggest would work well, but might be looked at askance by a traditionalist (which I tend to fall into occasionally.) The drawer would also have to be absolutely square and cut tight to avoid the bottom racking in the groove and exposing a gap. This creates a few choice words when you have to slide the drawer bottom into the groove once the drawer is fitted.

With the full slip, you can cut the drawer bottom 1/8" or so less than the opening and then have one less problem during fitup, as well as being able to make the drawer a trifle skinnier at the back than the front.

Cheers,

Andrew


http://www.amgron.clara.net/drawers/drawerindex.htm

Re: Flush slips

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Thanks, Andrew. I'm aware of the advantages of the slips. I think what I'm talking about is adding muntins, or maybe very long glue blocks, depending on whether it's a utilitarian drawer in a kitchen, probably with plywood bottoms, or a fine furniture drawer with solid bottom.

The flush strips look a little weak to me in so far as supporting the bottom is concerned, looks like the bottom could more easily droop; but with a center runner/muntin they could work great.

I truly appreciate all this expert help. You Brits and Aussies really know your stuff.

Pam

Re: Flush slips

Sgian Dubh

>Pam, one of my doodles has what's known euphemistically as a calculatory anomaly, aka, balls up. I showed the flush type slip with a notch at the back, which is wrong. Here's a modified and (hopefully) corrected drawing. Put it this way, I don't see anything wrong with it yet, ha, ha.

Yes, steel dovetails are nails. Just got to make sure you angle them in towards each other for the full dovetail effect! Slainte.

Re: Flush slips

Wiley Horne

>Thank you very much, Richard, for the exceptional drawings, and the data on typical drawer thicknesses. These posts and their drawings are all keepers-for-reference, and highly appreciated.

Wiley

Re: Flush slips

Andrew F in Australia

>Hi Pam,

No problems, details of drawer muntins are also in the Jeff Gorman page I linked to - it's typically lap dovetailed into the underside of the drawer front (or maybe have a tongue that's glued in to the groove in the front of the drawer, but not recommended in a heavy load drawer)and typically screwed up into the drawer back, or dovetailed in as the drawer back is (usually) thin.

Note that muntins are typically used in wide span (>900mm/30")drawers or those designed to carry a heavy load.

Cheers,

Andrew