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Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

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Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

#26

Re: more than you wanted to know -OT

VTAndy3

>Sorry for the length of this, but it struck a chord:

I really appreciate your open statement about these concerns, Adam. I am one who would have appreciated hearing Mike's perspective in that article.

I do sympathize with those who would like to see minimal conflict of interest in articles; however, I also feel that there is a difference between turning an article into a mouthpiece for a corporate tool manufacturer and acknowledging the expert advice of a small-scale toolmaker like Mike. The only thing that would raise eyebrows from me is if someone makes a sweeping generalization without specifics backing it up -- like if sawmaker x says that the original saws by current slightly larger builder y are no good any more, then doesn't provide specifics. In that case, magazines do appear to be providing a form of unmediated advertizing. In the case of wood magazines in general, I've come to expect that to a certain degree, the articles themselves are sometimes accidental advertizements. I mean, I enjoyed the recent FW article about LN, but it was almost indistinguishable from one of those paid inserts that a company can get in a bigger magazine. I didn't care because I like that they are focussing on hand tools somewhat. Woodworking Magazine seems to be setting a much higher standard of objectivity, with reviews that are more comparative -- i.e., they will actually note that among 4 widgets, one is _not_ recommended, rather than reviewing only one widget and hyping it. (FW does comparative reviews but I find the ratings to be arbitrary -- probably just me and not an opinion shared by others).

Also, I believe that on a certain scale, the conflicts of interest are just not important any more. You can buy a tool made by a large manufacturer by filling out an online form and never deal with them personally. But anyone who orders a saw from Mike Wenzloff or a plane from Larry Williams is going to deal with them personally about the specifics of the tool, and there will be at least a brief personal connection. Does this mean that all of their customers are biased and should not write reviews due to conflict of interest? How much money do people think is at stake here, anyway?

What I loved about your saw article, Adam, is the user's perspective, and if this means that a handful of manufacturers look to Mike W as an influence, and another half place a load of orders for Mike's saws (which I know I will as soon as my wallet is ready), then one can hardly blame a conflict of interest.

A final point that is not intended to be an accusation but is intended to prompt some thinking:

Back in January when I posed some questions about jointer planes, you (Adam) posted a criticism of the responses that I was getting, in which you argued that we need to take stock of the consumerism behind threads like that. This did influence me to find a reasonable old Stanley #7 rather than spend big bucks on a new one. But this does raise the question: what is so much more objectionable to you about someone suggesting to someone else to buy a certain new low-angle jack than someone else suggesting a new saw from a specific maker?

Personally, I look for balance and use my own judgement when evaluating opinions in articles and posts. I do not take sweeping put-downs (like "x are awful") too seriously, nor do I see positive reviews as much more than letting me know that a given product is out there. I remember Chris Schwartz's statements a while back here when his LN videos came out -- he made it very clear what lengths he goes to in order to maintain integrity, and one would have to be very cynical indeed to disregard what he said. So please, write for those who hold you in high regard, not for those whom you suspect would pick at every nit -- they'll do that anyhow!

-Andy, who has loved every one of your articles, enjoyed reading your posts in the archives here (especially the "Challenge"), and who will be one of the first in line -- as you know -- to buy your book, whenever that may be!

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

#27

Balance and openness rant

Bill Houghton, rain today, Sebastopol, CA

>A lot of journalists will argue that there is no such thing as objectivity - we all bring our perspective to our work. What there can be are (a) openness, and (b) strenuous efforts at balance and transparent fairness.

Myself, I have no objection to reading an article by someone who openly discloses that s/he makes or sells a particular product, as long as the reasoning for a particular recommendation is laid out clearly. There was a recent (FWW?) article on carving tools, in which the author slammed Swiss tools pretty hard, and supported German tools. People on several fora reacted pretty strongly to this, because they'd tracked down his website, and learned that he sells a line of German tools (can't recall which company).

Now, had he said, "I sell German tools, and have chosen to do so because I think they're better for these reasons," it would be difficult to fault his recommendation - he's offering a judgment based on his experience, presumably. His failure to be open creates the possibility that his argument, rather than being based on his judgment of the best tools, is based on his judgment of what will increase his income - perhaps an unfair accusation to level, but we collectively can grow pretty cynical...and I'll stop with that statement before this post wanders into verboten territory.

None of us, after we've done something for a while, is without opinions as to the best way to do it; learning to discuss our judgments openly enough that a newbie will learn faster than we did is the critical skill, not aiming for some sort of impossible objectivity.

Bill, climbing down off soapbox for the next speaker

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

#28

Re: more than you wanted to know -OT

thomd

>There are PC issues where all that is at stake is that the average reader of the article, who doesn't have a personal relationship with any of the authors, any particular knowledge of the subject, and who probably isn't buying the magazine for more than one editorial cycle, may loose some confidence in the magazine or it's authors. Big deal in the large scheme of things, though it's reasonably serious if one is concerned for the magazine or it's authors.

In any case, I don't think this is a PC issue, it's an issue of conflicts of interest. There isn't anything wrong with conflicts, except in the odd case where they are specifically illegal. The main issue is how to deal with them. In this case one option would have been to write one's way around them, through interview or incorporating the info through one's own voice, whatever. Not to say anyone is obliged to do that kind of thing, it would simply have been an option.

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

#29

Re: Balance and openness rant

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Bill, I think that if you reread that PWW article on carving tools, you'll see that Calvo did say exactly why he didn't like the new Swiss tools. The fact that he did indeed sell Two Cherries German chisels was noted in a sidebar, right out there for all to see. So this makes a very bad example for you to reference, particularly if you haven't read the article. I know for a fact that many people here didn't read it, based on their unfounded criticism.

Pam

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

#30

Jack Guzman from Maine

off track ...

Jack Guzman from Maine

>Pam,I can't seem to decipher the term "pseudo subspeciation".Is there a simpler way to say that?---Jack

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

#31

Re: off track ...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Pseudo subspeciation is the false, incorrect division of a species into subspecies. For example, dividing humans into races, which is scientifically bogus.

Pam

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

#32

Time to move on

Wiley Horne

>

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

#33

Re: more than you wanted to know -OT

VTAndy3

>Thom,

Right, to include quoted comments from makers, like in the Woodworking Mag article about holdfasts -- that was excellent.

-Andy

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

#34

Re: Balance and openness rant

VTAndy3

>Pam,

I'm perhaps one whose criticism you found to be unfounded, but I did read the article. I even saw the sidebar but forgot about it. I have commented that I found the criticisms weren't backed by much detail, but also understand that each of us probably has a different point where there is enough versus not enough detail. Most important to me is that I still assume that David Calvo probably also sells the tools because he finds that they are better --- I don't honestly believe that there is a lot of financial interest in this case. It would be an entirely different matter if we were talking about a representative of some power tool company with millions in sales at stake. Perhaps we disagree here, but please don't indicate that it is due to not reading the article.

-Andy

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

#35

OK, my apologies.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

#36

Conflict of Interests?

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>Adam,

I am confused by what you meant about conflict of interest with this article. IF you had a financial interests in Mike's sales and you raved and raved about how great they ware than I could see the COI concern. Do you have a $$$ interest in his saws?

As far a WW mag articles sometimes being a thinly veiled advertisment I can see, HOWEVER, I like to think that I, as well as most WW mag readers are intelligent enough to think for them selves, and just be cause author A says that product B is the greatest thing since sliced bread we are not going to blindly believe that as gospel and throw down our coin. Perhaps at one time before the Internet than we may of been at the mercy of a mag article, but in todays world you'd be a fool to throw around your money without doing some 'net surfing to either confirm or deny the info the author put out.

Adam, I think your biggest concern wasusing info from Mike without his consent, and that is admireable, especially in this info theiving world we live in now. Next time I suggest contacting the person, and work it all out than publish the article with their blessings, and all should be well.

Trust me Adam, PWW has become my favorite mag recently due to it's high handtool content, and between the mag and this forum I think I can safely say that you are no requarded as anybodys shill.

Todd O.

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

#37

I apologize

Bill Houghton, rain today, Sebastopol, CA

>I did read that article, and missed the sidebar mentioning that he sells the tools.

I agree that he did lay out his reasons for recommending German over Swiss tools.

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

#38

Exactly

Adam Cherubini,NJ

>That's exactly it, Pam.

For everybody else regarding editing:

I don't blame the editor when I make a mistake. That's preposterous. I'm not reporting on the existance of WMD. I think they give me the benefit of the doubt. Do I make my point clearly? Do I have a point? Isn't that what you'd want them to do? Or would you rather Chris Schwarz write every article? He certainly could do.

So I apologize for this OT thread, but I learned something from it. Next time, I ask Mike Wenz for help and if he's reluctant, he'll wake up with a horse's head in his bed. (Of course, in this case, that would be a SAW horse's head!)

Adam

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

#39

Re: Wow

Todd Hughes

>Looks like a homemade or put together saw to me and not a factory tool. If old was most likely was made by a wood worker who was more comfortable working wood then making a metal back so used the boxwood. Wouldn't be surprised if the box wood is from an old ruller. Handle sort of resembles those seen on cheap kids tool box saws from the 1920s or so.....Kind of interesting....Todd

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

#40

Re: Wow

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Yeah, that was my guess, too; but I'm so attracted to it, regardless of its value. That's a great idea about the maker having used a boxwood ruler for the spine, would never have thought of it.

Pam

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