Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

And while we're talking saws, ...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>what do you think about this boxwood spined back/dovetail saw?

Pam

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

mikew

>Hi Pam,

I suspect Adam will be along.

In the meantime, one can measure teeth as teeth per inch or points per inch. Both systems have been used, sometimes variously by the same maker in the same key or catalog.

Rees did this in the book on the Seaton chest, following Seaton's lead. For the handsaws [called panel saws in the book and in the inventory] TPI was used and for the backed saws, ppi was used.

There is simply one less TPI vs PPI when measuring. So a 5 TPI equals 6 PPI.

Take care, Mike

Re: And while we're talking saws, ...

Ernie Miller

>I like it need my address? You can be my secret santa.

Wow

Frank D. in Montreal

>That is very inspirational! Makes me wonder why they made it that way though, wood being less stable than metal...it's not as if the maker didn't have any metal on hand. It looks very nice. Is it yours Pam? Can you tell us more about it?

Re: Wow

thomd

>Aaaaaaaghhhhhh! Let's just change the heading to metal worship tools forum. Metal is not necesarily more stable than wood for instance it varies as to heat very significantly. In fact, if memory serves, there is a device that uses different metal strips and the wild gyrations that result with temperature variations. Who knows, perhaps the device was discovered when man first sought to stabilize a baksaw by tacking a strip of brass to one side. There are a long list of ways in which metal moves, but whatever the case, surely the variation in movement on a backsaw, with a carefully sellected strip of boxwood, would be within the necesary range for cutting to lines layed out with a boxwood rule and square.

I could go on, but I think the meds are kicking in...

Re: Wow

Dean J in MN

>:-)

And if I recall, wood is more stable in length than metal... So....

Re: Wow

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>No, it's not mine yet, thinking about buying yet another small boxwood item to add to my collection of tiny planes, levels, and spokeshaves. This saw is probably a bit large for this tiny collection of tinies, but still.

I think it's beautiful, exquisite, thought you guys would appreciate seeing it.

Pam

Re: Wow

Frank D. in Montreal

>Hi Thom,

I kinda threw that out there to see what others would say...I know metal moves with temp changes (and not humidity) but still, it seems to me that boxwood has more potential to move than metal. My saws don't bow when the temp changes in my shop (a 60 degree celsius range!), but my wooden planes sure do change with the seasons. Now don't get me wrong, I'd love to try making a saw like that, and probably will one day, but I imagine the wood would have to be straight-grained and very stable.

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Thanks, Mike, although it seems to me that measuring from midpoint to midpoint with two intervening full teeth and calling that 4 points is a bit disengenuous. Oh, well.

Pam

Re: Wow

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>108 degree Fahrenheit range in your shop??? I guess it's not heated or air condidioned...

Question: do you get much rust as a result? I have to run a dehumidifier in my basement shop during the summer, and either humidity was worse this year or the dehumidifier lost some of its effectiveness, because it was very hard to keep the humidity below 60%. As a result I did get some rust this year :-(

DC

Sorry, that ship has sailed. :)

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Thanks Pam

Frank D. in Montreal

>

Re: Wow

Frank D. in Montreal

>Hi Denis,

I hardly get any rust at all, and with all the rust problems I read about I feel guilty sometimes... :) I'm pretty sure it,s because of the two walls of windows i have. My shop is in a veranda on the second floor, and I get the morning sun which warms up the tools as well as the air, and helps to lower relative humidity. The temps can get a little extreme, but I like opening up the door and listening to the birds while I work.

Re: Adam's saw article, PWW Oct '06

mikew

>I suppose it's a matter of perspective.

In using an inch as a standard of measurement and using the tips as the starting "point" for counting, well, there would be 4 per inch, or some approximation there of.

Beginning measuring from the bottom of a gullet between two teeth to the nearest gullet equaling one inch in distance, there most likely will not be 4 full teeth unless [A] it is a new saw or [B] someone has kept it filed very well.

So if there isn't a full one inch from gullet to gullet, would that be a 3.75 tooth per inch saw? Or a 4.25 tooth per inch saw? Or would we say there are about 4 teeth per inch? Regardless, there will be 5 ppi in that same inch.

There are no issues of anyone--past nor present--being disengenuous. Just different methods of measurement. Take your pick. It really doesn't matter--except when some form of commonality for discussion is needed. To say 4 tpi instead of 5 ppi or vice versa isn't gonna matter to me.

Take care, Mike

Coil Cleaner

Jim in Bulington On

>Buy a can of Refridgeration and air conditioning coil cleaner. Preferably from a HVAC outlet and give the coil a good cleaning. Should save you a few bucks on elec bill as well.

OK, thanks.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: Wow

thomd

>I figured you would appreciate the irony of me mucking in on your post. :0)

more than you wanted to know -OT

Adam Cherubini

>My feeling is that its easier to measure ppi when the teeth are very small.

Can I just add, and hopefully without inciting a riot:

I have profound respect for Mike Wenz. He's a rare tool maker who really knows tools from a user's perspective. I very much wanted to co-write this article with him, or at very least ask him to help/edit/fact check. I didn't ask him or even tell him of the article's existence because i felt some would accuse him of influencing the article for his financial benefit.

In my opinion, the article was half what it might have been had this not been an issue. I have mistakes in that article, and areas that added to folks confusion (like this one). I also fuzzied up pitch and rake. Disston and others used the terms interchangeably. I used the engineering notion of pitch as in thread pitch, which was probably unprecedented, and threw a lot of readers.

Not in any way to accuse anyone of anything, but this is the other side of the complaint that the authors/magazines are all in bed with advertisers/industry folks. If this situation comes up again, I may not go the same way. I think I'd rather defend my ethics and those of whomever I consult with than short change you again.

Adam

Re: more than you wanted to know -OT

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Well, I have to admit that I was very surprised to see pitch and point count used synonymously, but simply chalked that up to some sort of personal mistake too profound for me to address this week. I agree that Mike could have added a lot to the article, he seems to ooze saw knowledge and beautiful saws.

I guess I'd have to ask whether someone is editing for you. Does that person know woodworking?

Pam

Re: more than you wanted to know -OT

Bob Hackett

>As I have said before,there are folks out there who will dig till they find something they can complain about(either real or imagined)and the rest of us need to do all we can to avoid disappointing them.

I never thought of Adam as one of those who worried about being PC and am frankly surprised to hear he knuckled under in order avoid criticism from the naysayers.I had hoped that at least HE would stand strong and give us the most useful,timely and correct info from the most knowledgeable sources he could find.

Sad to see yet another curmudgeon swayed by the forces of peer pressure.Is there no-one to speak for the remainder of us who seek true enlightenment(and a little useful,untainted and applicable knowledge)?

Mainely,Bob

Re: more than you wanted to know -OT

mikew

>I think Adam speaks fairly clearly for himself.

Adam and I emailed following the article's release--indeed the first time I saw it. I can appreciate his motive of insulating me from criticism. If it was just about him, he gladly would have taken flack, if there was any.

fwiw, I liked the article and thought it did a very good job in presenting the information.

In publication, as I found out in writing an article which never made it to print, there are limitations. Else we would be receiving books instead of magazines. Not a bad thought...but beyond the mission of the mags.

I apologize for butting in. It's a bad day.

Take care, Mike

Book is a good idea

Wiley Horne

>Mike and Adam,

I think you guys should collaborate on a book at some point. After a few magazine articles. Title could be something catchy and innovative like 'The Hand Saw Book'. Just need a publisher (PopWood? Taunton?). Add Dave Burnard for the Japanese saw section.

Wiley

Re: more than you wanted to know -OT

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Bob, you seem to have been on a PC hunt lately (maybe forever and I didn't notice). I don't really disagree in theory, think it closes down open discussion when it's most needed, particularly in a university setting. But I do think there's a lot to be said for polite consciousness; or: there's no need for pseudo subspeciation and racial/gender based epithets in any discussion.

I didn't read Adam's message as voicing political consciousness in any way, shape, or form. He simply didn't want to open up PWW, Mike, and himself to the ridiculous arguments like those that pursue Derek and LV. Perhaps a bit of self censorship, but then we all do that almost every time we post, and a good thing, too. :)

Pam

Re: Book is a good idea

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Yeah, and add Mark Grable, Jay van Arsdale, and maybe Yataiki in translation if he'll play. :)

Pam