Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge
Re: Hmmm...
Dave Burnard
>The brand I have are Nomikatsu, same as the ones Dick Gmbh sells. You see them in the Japanese Home Depot-equivalent stores. So they're not meant as high end tools. Hida sells (or at least they used to) some nicer HSS chisels, but I don't know anything about them other than that.
Re: A correction
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>I thought you said once on Hiraide that you used Matsumura bench chisels and were very satisfied. This was in a discussion about speciality vs bench chisels. Guess it was someone else. Sorry about that.
Pam
Sounds like 3V to me
Phil Smith
>Sounds like the 3V chisels that Bill and I made. Tough, hold and edge, and with dogwood handles take a beating. Handles are custom fit so if the balance is not what you want make another.
Re: What I'm looking for...
Dave Burnard
>Sounds like what you want is a better chisel than what you've got - lots of western or japanese chisels will fit the bill. We've all been there at one time or another. Why not test the waters with a chisel or two and see what you like.
Re: Sounds like 3V to me
Miles
>The custom knifemakers are always doing crazy tests like chopping through nails, SUV door hinges (yes, I read a detailed report of just such a test!) to show how tough the edges are. If HSS alloy chisels can cope with mild steel nails, with a suitably coarse bevel angle I guess, then I would agree that CPM3V should certainly do too.
Have any of the systematic sharpening/cutting tests been done on 'ordinary' CrV alloy blades such as are used by the mainstream tool manufacturers? I know it's common to claim that they don't take or hold an edge, but it would be good to know just how much better the fancy materials are, or if there are good 'workaday' examples that are actually quite good. I would rate the 424P material quite well, actually, for a go-to chisel as it seems to hold up rather well for me, and gets sharp enough despite my imperfect technique. I am wondering whether the bad rap for this type of steel has come from oilstone users who can't really sharpen the hard carbides very well (same arguments as over 3V but at a lower level) and so never find the same edge quality as they achieve on carbon steel. The high Cr doesn't help either.
So, has anyone done some side-by-side comparisons - even photos of failed edges in different chisels in a chopping test would be informative. I know that my cheap-rubbish ones just crumble if I chop them into oak, but a japanese chisel has no problem, neither do old cast steel ones or the 424. Distinguishing between these needs consistent preparation and test material, just as has been done for plane blades. Any pointers to good test data? Obviously bevel angles are pretty important - anything will fail if too fine an edge in such a test case.
If good test data were available, the OP would have been able to base his choice on objective performance alongside his stylistic preferences.... so no thread, which would be a loss for us, but he would have been able to confidently buy. Maybe there is a place for a comparative review page on WC, using actual available brands?
cheers to all
Miles
Re: What I'm looking for...
Dclark
>The problem I have seen with some of the newer "industrial" chisels (i.e. Lee Valley) is that they are underhardened. Steel with Chromium and other additives that are underhardened are a "bear" to sharpen because it is so difficult to get rid of the burr. Don't know about the Bahco, but I will never buy at any price a "newly manufactured" chisel unless I know that the hardness is sufficient for the steel and that it is controlled properly by the manufacuter. Sharpened screwdrivers work better than gummy under-hardened "Cro-MO" chisels.
If you harden a plain carbon steel to RC-55 it might not hold an edge very well, but it is easy to resharpen, but if harden a more complex "Cro-Mo" steel to RC55, you will have a heck of a time ever getting an edge in the first place.
Don
Re: What I'm looking for...
Miles
>That's very interesting and a good test to try. I don't recall having problems with the 424Ps, but I'll remember to check next time I sharpen it.
Actually, I tend to find that some of the cast steel chisels have more tenacious burrs, which I had attributed to it being tougher and more fracture resistant. It may be that some of mine are underhardened, even though these are old ones not modern CroMo type steel.
cheers
Miles
Some useful data from Brent Beach *LINK*
Wiley Horne
>Miles,
This isn't chisel data; it's plane blade data. And therefore is testing abrasive-resistance rather than shock-resistance. A testing of chisels as you propose would probably give a different ordering--for example, one might expect M2 to do better as a plane blade than as a chisel, compared to CPM3V.
But data are always good, and Brent does very fine work....note that the ECE blade he tested is a Cr-V alloy. Brent posted this link recently on these pages, and I am just repeating it.
Wiley
Plane Blade Tests
Re: chisel recommendation
Ernie Miller
>What a day I went to an estate sale this morning and picked up a set of stanley 720's not what you are looking for but at a gloatable price. had to buy a bunch of under priced Starrett stuff also. First sale I have been to in months makes me want to stop more often.
Lee Valley Japanese chisels
Jeff Weaver
>Do you know anything about the Japanese chisels sold by Lee Valley? If so, what do you think of them?
Thanks,
Jeff Weaver
Re: Lee Valley Japanese chisels
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>The Koymaichi dovetail chisels? No, I sure don't, but they look nice and seem to be priced about right. Buying from LV is pretty much risk free, since if you have a problem with any item they exchange and/or take returns at the drop of a hat.
Pam
"Tenacious Burrs"
Scott Burr in cold Ben Lomond CA
>You talking about my family again?
Just Kiddin...;^)
Matsumura firmer chisels *LINK*
Paul M. in San Diego
>If you are interested in firmer chisels, then here are some excellent ones. These are my primary bench chisels, and I like the way they fit my large hands. I've tried standard Japanese chisels, and the tiny handles just don't fit my hands.
These are the same quality as the standard sized Matsumura chisels, just made bigger in length, thickness of the blade, and the handle size. I'm very glad I got 5 of these.
Matsumura firmer chisels
Re: Lee Valley Japanese chisels
Jeff Weaver
>Sorry if I wasn't clear. I didn't mean the dovetail chisels, I meant the regular Japanese chisels in the same part of the catalog with the other bevel edge chisels. I'm just looking to step of from my blue handles. I had it narrowed down to the Japanese and the Hirsch. What do you think? And you're right, all my dealings with LV have been great.
Thanks,
Jeff
Re: Lee Valley Japanese chisels
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>I bought the 1.5 mm Japanese chisel some years ago, to "complete" the set I bought from Woodcraft when I was new to Japanese tools; but I've never needed or used it. It looks and feels fine. Today, I'd buy one or three of the dovetail chisels.
Hirsch are also good chisels, assuming they are, as many have said, the same chisel as the Two Cherries. Many don't like the Hirsch handles, but you can always make them smaller, reshape them, etc.
Pam
Thank you!
Jeff Weaver
>
Re: Some useful data from Brent Beach
Miles
>Stuff as good as this on chisels would go a long way to settling some of the long-running debates. The only thing we can't account for is the inconsistency of a manufacturer's output so that what is available is not at all represented by what was tested. This seems to be an especial factor with the craftsman-made tools as these depend so much on the skill of the individual and it's much easier for the process to vary significantly.
It would also be more difficult to standardise the chisel testing - perhaps some sort of rig is needed to apply controlled blows, and if the wood is reasonably normal, a good-enough idea of edge behaviour vs impact energy, bevel angle, wood hardness etc could be gained. Quite time-consuming, but valuable.
Oh well, back to work!
Miles
Re: chisel recommendation
Paul Erickson
>Hi Ernie,
Have tried to email you, but the address keeps bouncing. Any chance of some pictures of the 720's?