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Sharpening Journey

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Sharpening Journey

#1

Sharpening Journey

Phil Smith

>Bill Tindall posted a note this week which started rather a good thread on tool steels and metalurgy and sharpening methods. Thought I would put up a post on how I arrived at my current state of sharpening practice with some observations of how I arrived at current state of art and science.

The photo below gives a view of an approximately 5 decade journey on learning to sharpen tools and knives. On the far right is a picture of hand driven grinder and progressing to the left ending with power grinder and diamond powder on lapping plates.

My first experience was learning to sharpen with my father in a small workshop that he used to store tools between building houses. Bevels were ground on a hand powered grinder and edges were honed on a gray oil stone. My job was to turn the hand powered grinder while he ground the bevel on his Stanley chisels and plane iron from my grandfathers plane. This is an experience that no amount of money can purchase. Link below is to a picture of dad's hand grinder and Stanley chisels. These chisels were use to literally hang hundreds of doors over an building career.


Lesson 2: My first experience on my on was with an inexpensive B&D 6 inch grinder with gray wheels for grinding and a Norton Coarse/Fine India oil stone for honing. First upgrade to this system was to a white grinding wheel. See link for picture of hardware.


While this system is capable of producing a good edge in my opinion it takes someone with real skill to produce good edges with this system. Typically the tool rest on cheap grinders is so small that it takes someone with a very good touch to reliably grind good edges. The tools I was using were all of carbon steel which means that overheating the edge is very easy to do. In addition the irons on the inexpensive Stanley plane is so thin that it is difficult to hand lap the bevel consistently. It is no wonder that some woodworkers give up on sharpening if they start here.

Lesson 3: About a decade ago based on article I had seen in woodworking magazines and on our clubs experience I switched to using sandpaper on glass. With this system you can consistently produce good edges on the commonly available woodworking tools. By using coarse sandpaper to replace the grinder you remove the risk of burning the tool on a high speed grinder. However it takes very good technique to go through the series of grits by hand. I jig for holding the tool at a set bevel is essential to get good edges. Link below is to setup that I used for several years. By this time I had moved to planes with thicker and better irons that the big box specials that I had started with. However the chisels were still of the chrome/vanadium variety and while they would take a good edge, did not hold that edge in oak and other hardwoods. Edge was too soft and easy to deform in use.


Lesson 3: Based on my experience with chrome/vanadium chisels I treated myself to a small set of Japanese chisels, complete with water stone and Maketia grinder for my 50th birthday. The chisels take a very good edge and solved the soft edge problem that I had seen with my previous chisels. However I now found that although the chisels did not deform they were fairly easy to chip. Now have two ways to put on good edge. Link below is to setup for water stones.


Lesson 4: Move to tool steel and diamond lapping. A few years ago there were numerous post on badger pond about the inability of tool steels to take a good edge. Based on my own experience with oil stones and water stones that is indeed the case. With M2 you can literally lap and edge till the cows come home and not take enough metal away to get a good edge. Bill and I started working with M2. He was looking for a chisel that would hold an edge while chopping mortise and dovetails. We found that indeed M2 would take a good edge when sharpened with with silicon carbide on glass but the steel was too brittle to make a good chisel. Poking around on the internet we found that there were indeed tool steels that were advertised to be much tougher that M2 at a hardness over RC 60.

Looked like for a couple hundred dollars we could run and experiment to make some paring chisels, mortise chisels and a couple of plane irons for wooden planes. We started with CPM 3V because we were looking for a very tough steel to make a very good mortise chisels. We were looking for a steel that you could driver into wood without deforming and yet not chip when chips were pried out. Made the other tools simply because we had the metal and it was a cheap experiment. Made the tools but now had a new problem. Yes the tools will take a pretty good edge with silicon carbide paper on glass they really killed the papers useful life. Tools are now tool abrasion resistant for our sharpening media. As many have noted in the post below the steel and sharpening media must be matched. Looking on the internet again found that loose diamond is available and widely used in the metal working industry, among others. Based on our experience with sandpaper on glass we assumed that we would need complete series of diamond plates to get a good edge. I made a complete series of cast iron plates stating with 30 micron and going down to 1 micron. You can see these on the left in the picture at the end of this note. However we have found that diamond is so much more aggressive than the normally used abrasives that you need dramatically fewer steps. Below is a picture of my current sharpening setup.


What you see is an cheap 8" grinder with a fine and coarse very soft ruby grinding wheels. The grinder is equipped with One Way tool rest. Good tool rest are essential for consistently grinding a straight even bevel. A cast iron plate with 1 micron diamond powder, bevel gauge for setting the bevel, square for ensuring a square edge and a cheap loop for looking at the edge. I grind until I have a wire edge on the bevel and then lap the edge with 1 micron diamond powder on the plate. When you have a bright bevel along the edge you are sharp enough for most uses. Some may prefer to go to 1/4 micron but 1 micron will meet most woodworkers needs.

Below is a picture of the tools.


Tools include complete set of paring and mortise chisels out of CPM 3V, and a couple of plane irons out of CPM 3V plus a couple out of CPM particle M4.

Now that I have made the journey to tool steels I will not go back to to the O1 and A2 tools for several reasons.

1. In my opinion they are simply easier to grind than the other tools if you use the right hardware. These steels temper at around 1000 F. That means that someone with relatively low skill can grind them on a grinder without worry of burning the edge. This is a big deal for new woodworkers.

2. They take a good edge when sharpened with diamond powder.

3. They perform. Steve Elliott has shown that the 3V has a useful life of about 2X over regular plane irons. That is a big deal in my opinion, and I think that there is room for more with with M4 or one of the other steels.

Below is link to picture of a CPM 3V mortise chisel sharpened to 26 degrees with a 7 inch wheel. The effective angle at the tip is more like 23 to 24 degrees.


In use I use this chisel with 2 lb dead blow mallet to cut mortise in oak. I use Bill's and others method of drilling a hole at one end and then drive the chisel essentially full depth. By about the 2nd or 3rd chop I am at full depth prying out chips. I think this would be difficult with either a A2 or Japanese chisel ground at this steep angle. The steep angle on the chisel makes mortise easy to start and the chisel easy to drive for the following chops.




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Re: Sharpening Journey

#2

Re: Sharpening Journey

woodburnbob

>Interesting read, Phil. Hope you get a chance to fix all the pictures that don't show...at least on my monitor the only one coming through is the last one.

Aggressive hammering and chip levering with a mortise chisel ground to 25 degrees! I guess I now have a better understanding of the goal you and Bill have with cutting edges. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how CPM3V ground to 25 degrees compares in practice with, say, 0-1 or A-2 with a primary bevel at 20 degrees and a small secondary bevel at, say, 40 degrees. I'm not thinking of edge survival, rather something along the lines of cubic inches of wood morticed per minute. Does a chisel that allows mortising with a 25 degree cutting angle double your speed at the bench? Triple it? By the way what are the major woods you'll be cutting these mortises in?

Re: Sharpening Journey

#3

Jim in Burlington Ont.

Geat post

Jim in Burlington On

>Thanks for sharing. I'm a bit jealous not to be in on the fun.

Re: Sharpening Journey

#4

Hopefully this will save

vlparisian

>about four decades for a bunch of us. Thanks for the informative post.

Victor - in balmy Houston

Re: Sharpening Journey

#5

Splendid

David Charlesworth

>Phil,

I think that is splendid.

Was not paying enough attention to the discussion about suitable cast iron and where to get it.

Could you remind me please? I would like to try this.

best wishes,

David Charlesworth www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk

Re: Sharpening Journey

#6

Re: links linkified

paul womack

>pic 1


pic 2

pic 3

pic 4

pic 5

BugBear

Re: Sharpening Journey

#7

Re: Sharpening Journey

thomd

>Actually you can really thinly taper Japanese chisels and it doesn't hurt them at all. Krenov was recomending that 30 years ago. It probably makes them impossible to sharpen conventionally, but so what. Japanese have been marketing HSS chisels as long as I have been around, as always there is very little new.

Re: Sharpening Journey

#8

Re: links linkified

Phil Smith

>Thanks for putting the links in. I had forgotten about using the HTML code to put active links in messages.

Re: Sharpening Journey

#9

Re: Splendid

Phil Smith

>There have been lots of discussion here on the board over the last couple of years on potential sources of cast iron for use with diamond powder. Unfortunately none major suppliers of tools currently offers suitable cast iron plates at a reasonable cost.

What Bill and I did was to order extruded cast iron blanks 1.25" T X 2.25" W X 12" L from Metals express. Have the cut into 5/8" T blanks by a local machine shop and then blanchard ground on both sides to a finished thickness of about 5/8".

Re: Sharpening Journey

#10

Re: Sharpening Journey

Phil Smith

>The primary woods that I will use the chisels in are oak, walnut, and cherry. Typical American hardwoods. Below is link to a picture of series of mortises cut with the 5/16" chisel. These are legs for small Shaker style side table that I am making. I am making two of these. Total length of mortise for the two tables is somewhere around 40" long by about 1" deep.


And here is link showing angle chisel was ground to.

For comparison with other tools will defer to Bill. He has much more experience with other mortise chisels.

As for as goals with edge tools Bill and I are both researchers by training. I don't have any interest in small changes, rather my goal is to make changes that are large enough that they are easy to identify and as they say at work MOVE THE NEEDLE.

Re: Sharpening Journey

#11

Fixed the original post

Dan Donaldson

>I added the img src tags to make the pictures show up in line in the original post.

Re: Sharpening Journey

#12

Re: Sharpening Journey

Jim Brown

>What issues did you find while using the basic economy bench grinders? I've always worried they were enough sloppy that I should look into wheel balancing devices and perhaps parts upgrades on them. Interesting post. Much appreciated.

Re: Sharpening Journey

#13

Re: Sharpening Journey

thomd

>I have the ballancing thing from Oneway, the earlier version, and while it ballances the wheels I don't notice any difference. My wheel is 8" and by choice only runs at 1800 rpm which is only one fourth the energy of the regular type running 3600. The great thing about wheels is that they aren't all that agressive, and one can perch a tool on the running stone and maintain control. Where stock removal or finer polishing is concerned belt sanders are vastly superior. But the very limitations of the grinders can be useful at times.

Re: Sharpening Journey

#14

Re: Sharpening Journey

thomd

>Perhaps the reason they need to agressively lever is because they are exploring penetrating, which is good. But at some point without enough sidestep mortising is less effective.

Re: Sharpening Journey

#15

Sidestep mortising?

woodburnbob

>I know plenty about sidestepping a question, but what does it mean: sidestep mortising.

Re: Sharpening Journey

#16

Re: Sidestep mortising?

thomd

>I use the high angle bevel to shear the chip out. The higher angle the bevel the deeper one can work, at least in the absence of crank chisels, and th emore easily the chips are sheared out. Chisel work is not in line with the back of the chisel but ti takes a step to the side with every hit.

Re: Sharpening Journey

#17

Re: Sharpening Journey

Phil Smith

>The biggest fault I have found with the inexpensive grinders is the tool rest. Fortunately for us the woodturners have long used grinding to sharpen their lathe tools and manufactures have responded with good tool jigs for that market. Bill and I have found the OneWay tool rest to be very good. It is large, stable and relatively easy to adjust. They also have a very good diamond dressing tool with makes it easy to keep the wheel dressed if you like jigs. I just use dressing stick that has lots of small diamonds bonded to the end. The Ryobi that I bought has worked well for sharpening once I installed the OneWay tool rest.

Re: Sharpening Journey

#18

Re: Sharpening Journey

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Phil, thanks for a very informative post. It sounds like the reason you dropped the Makita, if indeed you did drop it, was because your Japanese chisels were brittle. Don't worry, I'm not going into all the ways Japanese chisels aren't brittle, at least after a bit of use; but I am going to ask: Why can't the Makita work as your primary grinder before going to the paste and plate? Speed too slow? Don't like the wheels?

Thanks,

Pam

Re: Sharpening Journey

#19

Re: Sharpening Journey

bill tindall, E. TN

>I'll take a crack at this question.

Everyone I know that has a grinder that requires loading with water and dealing with the water thereafter doesn't use it for routine sharpening, especially if there is not a sink in the shop.

The Makita leaves a flat bevel. Hence, to hone one needs to remove vastly more metal than honing a hollow bevel as left by bench grinder.

Otherwise, it is a great machine, especially for flattening backs. We flattened more than 30 one evening using it. It will grind the CPM 3V, but not as quickly as less abrasion resistant steels.

Re: Sharpening Journey

#20

My beef against japanese chisels

bill tindall, E. TN

>I could post my journey through chisels. My original Blue handled affairs did not have a robust edge. They crumbled mortising house hinges in pine. I began accumulation of some Two Cherries as they were much better, though it took an eternity to flatten the misshpaen backs. Then I bought a Japanese chisel for about $30. It suited me perfectly. I liked its shortness and balance, espeically for dovetails.

About this time I discovered the shortcomings of Sorby mortise chisels and we realized how easy it would be to make mortise chisels. That got us thinking about bench chisels, and in my case in particular, dovetail chisels that I could custom size, short. Dang, as long as we were making mortise chisels we could easily make some bench chisels and plane irons, and lathe tools. (things were begining to get out of hand!) And best of all the chisels would cost less than $10 each and be sized to suit the owner.

Overall, for everythign I did I liked the shortness and balance of the Japanese chisel. I have no use for the unwieldly long western chisels, especially for chopping operations. Now that I have a short set of chisels I never go to the Two Cherries. In the amount of time it took to delacquer and flatten them I could make a custom replacement. So, my only beef against Japanese chisels is that to replicate my home made chisel set in purchased chisels would cost me a pile of money. My beef against two cherries is that the backs are dubbed off at the factory, they come covered with disgusting lacquer, the handles are heavy which leaves them unbalanced for chopping operations, eg dovetailing. They are fine for pareing, which I do much less than hinge mortising and dovetailing.

If people realized how easy it is to make chisels I suspect many more would be home-made . We had no metal working experience when we started; we really didn't need any. The hard part, heat treating, can be hired cheaply. So, if you are cheap and want custome sized chisels, make your own form the metal of your choice.

Re: Sharpening Journey

#21

Re: My beef against japanese chisels

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Bill, it seems like you and Phil have abandoned tools and sharpening systems without wondering why they were working for others and not working for you. If I had only an India combo stone like Phil, I certainly would not be able to sharpen very well, but fortunately there are better oilstones. If I had but a single Japanese benchstone, the results would be poor there too.

I have used Sorby mortise chisels for upwards of five thousand mortises; your results are baffling. The "blue handled" chisels are not my favorites, but if the edges crumbled for you, it is hard not to wonder if you got them "quite hot".

In March 1975 I spent a night on Maddron Bald, which is in the Smokies, a few miles from North Carolina. I can tell you from experience that no one would ever want to live in Tennesee. In my experience, Tennessee is quite mountainous and rather cold- 12 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 11 Centigrade).

Re: Sharpening Journey

#22

Re: Sharpening Journey

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Right now I don't use it for routine sharpening either. It's mainly used for chips, dents, initial back flattening (nice to hear you confirm its capabilities at this) and the like, with the regular waterstones used for regular sharpening. Also, since I don't want a hollow grind, even given the slightly more work for honing, that's not a negative for me. Also nice to hear it handles CPM 3V, albeit slowly. It is a truly messy device, slinging mud all over. I even built it a plywood cage, but the front has to stay open, so I get very dirty.

I confess, every time I start looking at grinders and various jigs, as Phil's message caused me to do, I get dizzy. Why did you guys decide on the Oneway rather than the LV?

Pam

Re: Sharpening Journey

#23

So you have no beef against japanese chisels?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Except the cost, of course, which is substantial.

Pam

Re: Sharpening Journey

#24

LV vs Oneway- that be easy

bill tindall, E. TN

>As much as I admire LV as a company and its products I can't say anything positive about the LV tool rest. It is flimsy/wiggly and iron (palne iron)doesn't slide well on aluminium (the rest)-its grabby. I promptly sold mine. One could easily make a good rest of wood-but. I set my wood one afire with the hot sparks from a heavy grinding session.

For sharpening only, not lawn mower blades and the like, and cheap: Buy a LV arbor, pulleys of sufficient size to reduce RPM by 1/4 and a 1/4 HP motor, could be a washer motor or anyting. Also buy the LV white wheel, or a soft pink one would be a bit better. Make a tool rest at your preferred angle. It will be ideal for sharpening. The first class option is buy a 3 phase grinder and a variable frequency drive to power it. With this arrangement I can run my wheel 100 rpm or less. Talk about controlled sharpening on a wheel!! I can sharpen at 3600 rpm, but it is more stressful. Phil did it one before 50 people at a club meeting (that is at 3600 rpm) and a carbon steel iron. I was impressed. Maybe he had a couple of beers first.

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