Is there a metalurgist in the house?

Colour and Temp

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont.

>Thanks Bill,

I was not aware of the temp for tool steel being that high, I think we all know about carbon steel and the blue colour monster.

I learnt something new today..

:-)

take care,

Jim

I was wondering

jim reed @ tallahassee

>when price would come up. Steel prices are up in general so whatever you knew about price and availability six months ago is old hat. I am sure that there are many tool steels which are superior to O-1 in some way. I do not think that superiority holds up at 2X the price or greater. O-1 is still the king of the price performance model.

Same in NC in '60s + Question re Germany

Wiley Horne

>Same experience, Bob. This was Class of '60 in a Charlotte, NC high school. If you didn't go to college, it was like dropping out of society. Something like 90% of our graduating class did matriculate somewhere.

I am glad now to have had that pressure at the time, and later applied it liberally to my own son.

Here's a question, prompted by VTAndy's remarks about his German and Austrian friends....As I understand it, there is to this day a formal trades educational track in Germany. You can't just hang up your shingle saying you're a cabinetmaker or plumber, as you can in the US--there are formal educational and on-the-job training requirements to be passed before you can represent yourself as a tradesman.

So here is the question: From the viewpoint of other Germans, is there a stigma attached to entering the trades track, as opposed to continuing on to university?

Wiley

Same in Australia

Andrew F in Australia

>Hi Wiley,

To call yourself a tradesman here, it's a four year indentureship and passing of a written and practical examination in sufficiently quick time to allow yourself to have the title.

First year wages are about $70-/week, going up to $350/week in fourth year. Trade cabinetmakers (or any other one of the 100 or so flavours of trade) earn about $35k per year.

Is there a stigma attached to the trades? yes.

Until recently, most definitely (last 15 years.)

Now there's a skills shortage and people see that there is a definite need for tradesmen, unlike the oversupply of tertiary qualified students who can't get a job in their chosen field. The prime mincer has recently been making noises saying that there's no shame in being in the trades - pity that as leader of the country, he didn't do so earlier. It'll take years to rectify.

Cheers,

Andrew.

Re: Same in Australia

Wiley Horne

>Andrew,

Prime mincer--that's funny!! So now that there's a shortage of skilled tradesmen, can tradesmen charge more for their work, according to market forces? Or is there some form of control?

Wiley

DOLLAR MENU

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>At McDonalds you can get a double cheeseburger for one dollar. They are fast, they are cheap, and they fill you up just as well as any other foods. There are some people who claim that such foods as brie and filet mignon are better, but there is no scientific data to suport their claims.

Probably started around WW II

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>My father, who was the second son in his family, "inherited" the job of staying on the family farm instead of getting a higher education. There was only so much money available, and tradition back then was to send the eldest to school. The others had to scrape it on the farm or in the trades, the other option was the army. The women became nurses or nuns, or were married quickly. Trades were what you did if you or your family couldn't afford to "send you to school".

Forward 25 years or so. The "law of the land" when I was in elementary and secondary school was that those who had "talent" went to university, only "weak" students went to learn trades. The education system even formalized the situation by having trades taught at a separate school one block away in my town. Needless to say, kids being kids, these poor trade students were labeled all kind of demeaning, offensive epithets by the students in the "main" stream. With that kind of perception, only those who really wanted to be in trades and were thick skinned enough to withstand the daily barbs, or the least able academically (and who had no choice, those were given minimal instruction), ended up in the trade stream.

In those days, government assistance to higher education was generous enough that anyone, regardless of personal resources, could get a university degree. I benefited from that, so did my three sisters.

Also, even the governments viewed trades as a slowly dying breed, and invested little in their education.

The funny thing, and it persists to this day where I come from, is that people whose work is/was in the trades, still "bow in respect" (not really, but you get the idea) at those who have a degree and work in their chosen field, to them these people have "made it".

Things might be changing. Lots of trades now require a lot more skills and education than before, it's no longer a dumping ground for "the dumb". Demand is good, add to that the dot-bomb that left a bunch of people out of work, and I think that trades are making a comeback as a "reapectable" way of making a living.

Just my $0.02,

DC

not much difference

bill tindall, E. TN

>I'll pass to Phil on this. He buys the metal. We get it by the pound direct from Crucible Products. As I recall there is not a 2X difference among any of the possibilities with O-1 cheapest and M4 the most expensive. Buying larger sheets drops the prices a lot, really to insignificant compared to labor of making .

As far as a reply to Jim, lets see now.... $1000 and up for an infill, $300 for a LN. And why would we not be willing to put a premium iron in such a plane for $5 more IF it provided benefit.

Rebuttal Data

bill tindall, E. TN

>I have consulted my Turning catalogs-Packard, Craft Supply and Oneway. None of the professional turners have their names on carbon steel tools. None of these sources even sell carbon steel tools! I see M2 for the cheap tools, then M4 , ASP2030&2060, and Galser A-11 and V-15. These professional turners(they make their living putting lathe products out the door) have researched a lot of premium steels. (The researchers explore new things and the engineers find practical/economical ways to make what is found to be best) I have taken classes from, and done classes with, some of these people and watched others demo and indeed they use what they promote. Some how they, and all these catalog's customers, have failed to find the benefits you believe exist in carbon steel lathe tools.

I turn everything I can with a M4 gouge and a 3V skew. They are ground with100 grit wheel, honed with diamond. I am anke deep in shavings before I need to rehone and I rarely need to sand a spindle part. PS and I never need to worry about loosing temper while grinding because all these steels are tempered above 1000F, white hot.

maybe its biggest advantage for beginners

bill tindall, E. TN

>I must say that it is Phil that promotes this advantage, but he "ran out of gas" last night and didn't post this advantage, so I covered for him. Think stress free grinding. I grind my plane irons right to the edge to produce a wire edge on the grinder (do use a cool running wheel).

Re: "white hot"?

Dave Burnard

>(because they are tempered at about 1000F, which is white hot, and as long as grinding doesn't get the tool above 1000F...)

On which planet is 1000F "white hot"? Did you mean "quite hot"?

1000F is near the top of the "black heat" range i.e. no color, 1000C is a nice bright orange.

Why would a modern steel that makes a great lathe tool have anything to do with making a decent paring chisel or smoothing plane blade? The tasks, demands, and sharpening methods are so completely different.

Re: Same in Australia

Ian Smith (Sydney Australia)

>At least in Sydney, it seems tradesman can charge what they like. Getting hold of one when you need one is the real challenge, particularly if that tradesman happens to be a plumber.

Regards,

Ian S.

Re: Rebuttal Data

adam Cherubini, NJ

>I'm sorry. I don't mean to be argumentative. I thought you were saying that those of us who say "steel X doesn't take an edge" were propagating a myth. My point is that even if the science indicates this in indeed a myth, that its such a complicated science that its worth keeping the "conventional wisdom" a while longer. We may find that as our understanding of edges grows, we will indeed learn our grandfathers were right.

I also think its important to be careful drawing conclusions from data. Now I'm saying that with my sharpening gear, I can't get a good edge on HSS. Modern turners like HSS because they turn silica rich woods at 3000 rpm. Their choice of HSS may have everything to do with its temper temperature and nothing to do with its ability to take an edge. Some of the nations top turners don't even hone their gouges. They go straight from the grinder to the work. So this really isn't a data point that supports your implication (that HSS can take an edge as good as 1095). I certainly can't get my A2 or HSS to take an edge comparable to my W-1.

It may well be that the reason i have the opinion I have is that my sharpening media clogs or otherwise doesn't effectively handle the unique characteristics of these different steels. So it could be that the science is right, but that my perception of HSS is based on my media. I think from your perspective is doesn't matter. If anyone wants to introduce CPM tools for example, they should provide all the educational materials and supplies needed to sharpen it (which could be a nice little extra portion of a business).

Adam

Re: Same in Australia

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Believe me that in Perth there is no stigma in being a "tradesman". We have been experienced a once-in-a-century housing boom that has seen property prices literally double over the past 2 years. You can't get a tradesman for love .. only for money, and lot's of it! Every Tom, Dick and Harry who can wield a hammer is doing so, and at the top of the pile are those that know how to do so. Most earn a lot more than I do in my private practice.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Sorting something out *LINK*

Wiley Horne

>Bill,

I read Adam's post to say that A2 and HSS don't get as sharp as O1 or vintage steel on his stones. That's his smell test.

Your thesis, on the other hand, backed up by some controlled testing by Steve Elliott, is that O1, A2, 3V, and M2 all came to a comparable edge when honed with diamond or 0.5u CrO paper, and on the other hand, when final honing was done with Shaptons or Norton 8000x, the 3V and M2 never did get as sharp as O1 (and A2 was in the middle). See link.

Therefore, Adam's smell test is consistent with what you've been saying all along--that the alloy steels require different abrasives from what most folks are now using. But if the different abrasives (diamond, 0.5u CrO) are used, then initial sharpness of the different steels group closely together in the current testing. (Steve himself may be wincing a bit to read this, because he is not ready to make definitive statements himself until he has done more work.)

Bottom line: You and Adam are saying not inconsistent things (so far). Adam's smell test is precisely what you would predict, if I understand your thesis and I think I do.

Wiley


Steve Elliott: Some data on 'initial sharpness'

you're right throughout the universe

bill tindall, E. TN

>

Fixed diamond vs. loose diamond

Wiley Horne

>Hi Paul,

Bill is off arguing elsewhere, so lemme try. Bill is honing using 1 u loose diamond on cast iron, and loose diamond is available down to 1/4u commercially.

In my opinion, you are exactly right, the fixed diamond stones--which are typically available down to 1200g--are not fine enough for honing except in combat situations, and get played out pretty quickly unless they are treated with TLC.

Wiley

edge life quibble & Warren was right

bill tindall, E. TN

>My quibble was with your statement about lathe tool edge life with carbon steels. Few turners would agree as evidenced by the fact that none of the major suppliers of lathe tools even offer carbon steel tools. Turners like tool edge longivity and they will pay handsomely for it, eg Glasser tools. (Some of the tool holders for these premium steels are butt ugly, unlike our planes.)

Now I see that Warren was right ....."the steel, the sharpening materials and the methods used are a system" No question, modern abrasives enable modern steels and you have to do both if you want to take advantage of the steels. Yet, I believe the modern abrasives and methods are backward compatible with traditional steels.

Oil stones, or even water stones hardly touch M2, never mind the really abrasion resistant lathe tool steels. The professonal turners I know that hone, use diamond sticks of some sort. Personally, I cut a piece of grey cast iron the size of a small stone and charge it with some diamond powder. Cheaper than the diamond pocket stones. Or you can charge the worn out pocket stones with some success.

I turn and hone for hours before I need a trip to the grinder to restore the hollow grind. Currently making Bonnie Kline tops for Toys for Tots.

or tempering with night vision goggles?

Dave Burnard

>

Re: Probably started around WW II

Edward in Vancouver

>Very interesting thread. Here in B.C. the housing boom is still booming, and all trades are in high demand. As someone who took a classical 3 yr apprenticship (cook) in Switzerland, I am still very very confused with the concept of apprentices in Canada or the U.S.

In Europe you either decide to take up a trade or go on to higher schooling by the time you're 15. The trade schools are Gov't run, and there are apprentices for just about every trade you can think of. Now here in B.C. you have journeyman electricians, plumbers, and gas fitters, all Gov't licensed and inspected. Good, but as far as I know, we have no journeyman cabinet makers, or for that matter, any one can don a poofy white hat and call themselves a "Chef" and anyone can buy a camera and call themselves a "Photographer". Who is looking after the trades? Separating the shysters from the genuine craftsmen? No one really. How does someone just out of highschool, who really wants to become a good cabinet maker or furniture maker go about this? Private schools and courses is the first choice, or if they have the money and papers, go over to Europe to learn under a master.

Just doesn't make sense to me.

Re: Probably started around WW II

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>There are those of us who consider gov't licensing as, pure and simple, restraints of trade invented by contemporary practitioners. For example, it used to be that you could sit for a bar exam without a degree; and many excellent lawyers and judges passed their exams by simply reading the law. But this kept legal fees depressed. Sure, there were shysters about, but there still are anyway. In some ways this also meant that the natural lawers who couldn't afford college and law school were locked out.

Pam

Re: Fixed diamond vs. loose diamond

Miles

>I have had the 'medium' (15micron) DMT 3 yrs or so (now pretty worn but still cuts) which leaves a fairly nice edge (certainly I was pleased when I started using it!) but I since found that stropping with blue compound makes things considerably better - I wonder whether the stropped edge has removed the coarser scratches as well as further 'hard surface' honing with finer abrasives would have done? Can anyone comment on stropped vs honed edges when each have fine abrasives? I'm aware of the dubbing of the bevel angle (doesn't bother me much if it's minor) meaning my edge geometry isn't precisely controlled.

I can go from 80-grit belt sander, few strokes on DMT, then strop, to give me a good working edge. One day I'll get some 1u diamond and a suitable substrate to see what I've been missing all this time :-)

Miles

But wait...

jim reed @ tallahassee

>I certainly am not an advocate for using the lowest cost steel. Performance is an issue. My only point was that it can be hard to quantify the value of a steel like CPM over O-1. One must make a decision--is a 10% performance improvement worth a 50% price increase? (I selected these numbers from thin air.) Or is it performance at any cost? I agree if you are making one for yourself, the $5 is trivial. But if you are looking at a mfg lot of 1000, the numbers change and can suck the margin right out of a product. Perhaps this is why the manufacturers are not very interested.

Watching things go `round

Bob Hackett

>Am I the only one who finds it ironic that those doctors,lawyers,etc are now willing to bring their exorbitant salaries to the door of people such as myself and pay me far more than I ever made(hourly) producing WWing products to show them how to do what I do?

MB

What do you do now?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>