Is there a metalurgist in the house?

Confirmed by Crucible Products person

bill tindall, E. TN

>I asked this question of a metallurgist at Crucible Products, manufacturer of particle steels. He told me that A2 was more difficult to heat treat properly such that a cryo treatment of poorly treated material might fix it. If the heat treatment was done properly, it was a waste of money and marketing hype. In cases it screw up dies that were cryo treated. Other steels such as CPM 3V are forgiving and a cryo treatment would never be of benefit, other than a sales gimmic.

Re: diamonds

paul womack

>I think a lot of woodworkers became chary of diamonds when the first generation of diamond plates (which cost a tremendous amount of money) turned out NOT to last forever. Or even close.

IIRC Steve Knight wore one out in a matter of months.

Diamond "stones" are still rather expensive to be considered routine, IMHO.

BugBear

Chicken and Egg

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I think the chicken and egg concept is not a good one here. As Adam noted some time ago, the steel, the sharpening materials and the methods used are a system. They need to be developed in concert. It is a great folly to pick a sharpening system and reject all steels that don't work or to pick a steel and reject all materials that won't sharpen it. Both the Western tools and sharpening mothods, and the Japanese tools and methods were developed over a considerable period with much experimentation by makers and users. Both are used successfully today. The idea that a sharpening system needs to work on every steel that people can dream up is ludicrous.

Reality check

woodburnbob

>I'm learning interesting things from this thread, not unlike learning over the weekend that the universe is about 13.7 billion years old and that it is being sucked into a void of mysterious "black energy" and "black matter" at an accelerating rate.

So my reaction to nearly everything I'm learning this week is to try to ground myself a little by asking: "How again does this actually matter during my lifetime?"

Lack of special steels and sharpening products didn't seem to stop 18th century furniture and cabinet makers from getting work done. So I'm wondering, Bill, what practical matters drive your dedication on this topic? It would help me to understand.

I guess I could see the need, if you had to produce a quarter mile of complex molding, using molding planes, in teak or ipe. In fact, I'm now wondering why the knife and blade guys need ultra-modern super-steels and sharpening methods? What (and how many) objects do they design their implements to slice and dice in the post-modern age?

Oh, well, it's a slow morning for me. Too much time on my hands just now. Great thread. Keep up the fascinating work.

Re: Reality check

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>At worst, Bill's having fun dispensing with the hype, which in and of itself is of value.

As to hurtling through the universe, it may not matter in your life time, then again it may; but it sure is interesting. Same with this journey through tool steel.

Or, maybe you don't want to pursue any such thing, but Bill does. So why begrudge him?

Pam

Re: dependent variables

joel -( tools for working wood)

>I won't agrue that diamond sharpening works - and I think commerically avaiable cast iron plates will be avialable for woodworkers fairly soon. But in general there's a lot of people - myself included who don't think a tool that must be sharpened with diamonds is the be all and end all.

A lot of beginning woodworkers don't want to invest in a grinder and a sharpening system when they start out. For them tool that sharpen well on sandpaper are a much more economical way of starting out.

For me pesonally edge retention has never been an important issue. in this shop we expect people to sharpen stuff in a couple of minutes or less and grind in about the same amount of time. So the amount of time to hone or sharpen just isn't a big deal. Also I think the subtly of forged tools is an advantage in feel and ergonomics. Certianly the cost difference of using a alloy like CPM 3V would make it a turnoff for most entry level people (the cost of the metal is only one criteria - the cost of working it is another)

I think you guys have done a bang-up job in both showing off what a high-tech alloy can do. And more importantly how diamond powder/paste makes these exotic alloys usable for woodworking, but I don't think they are general purpose materials - more like specialy tools for working exotics and maybe in the future composite woods.

I don`t know about you but...

Bob Hackett

>I would rather have one system that can do everything I want and need to do by way of sharpening than have to purchase,store,maintain,and become/remain proficient with several.At the very least the shop space saved would be reason enough.

The fact that diamond paste on appropiate backing will sharpen far more quickly than any other system I`ve used is just icing on the cake.

Mainely,Bob

couldn't agree more

bill tindall, E. TN

>This format has only $1 worth of diamonds to work for you. The preferred approach is to grind with anything powered, eg. bench grinder, and then hone with a diamond charged something. The preferred "something" remains to be sorted out. What many don't yet appreciate is that diamond cuts so fast that one can go from grinding wheel to 1 micron and be done for practical purposes. A cast iron plate and $15 of 1 micron diamond will probably last most of us a lifetime. Maybe a powered lapping wheel charged with diamond is better. I'm still studying the Iowa State communication to learn how this material science professor used diamond to advantage to sharpen to the limit detectable by electron microscopy (which is good enough for my work). I suspect the people polishing metalurgical specimens have some experience to offer.

PS

bill tindall, E. TN

>the problem with these stones is that people used them to do what a power grinder was better suited for, ie major material removal. They do in fact last a very long time when used just for honeing. Once the proper bevel and wire edge is established with the wheel, it takes but about 3 strokes to do all that needs to be done with these stones.

Incorrigible Steels

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>As I mentioned I think that the best results come when steels and sharpening methods are developed in concert. I have no tools in my shop that were designed in tandem with diamond sharpening. Nor do I desire the ability to tame the most barbaric and incorrigible steels.

It is tempting to see sharpening as a function of grit size, hardness, and speed. These things are important, but subtlety, care and finesse also play roles in producing that wonderful thing we call a sharp tool.

Don't understand your claims

bill tindall, E. TN

>Can you provide an example of your premis that "As Adam noted some time ago, the steel, the sharpening materials and the methods used are a system. They need to be developed in concert. " I don't see any technical basis for this premis. Sharpening is a matter of removing metal. OK, for some it is a life style and I have no problem with that approach. Just so they don't claim it has to be with out supporting data.

You all flocked to water stones because they cut fast, then Shapton because they cut fast and lasted longer. I never heard claims that one had to keep a stable of oil stones for their old tools that were developed to be sharpened with them. The next step is diamonds when we discover how to best use them. Notions that they can't do the job only delay the advance.

agreement, and a comment on the state of affairs

bill tindall, E. TN

>I can't disagree with anything you said. LV marketing certainly agrees and they should know their customers. But, I would point out that not long ago people were satisfied with carbon steel lathe tools. Now I don't think they can be found for sale. Many(most?) knife buyers strive for the best steel available and learn to sharpen it. Certainly carbon steel knives are becomming uncommon.

A big difference is that leaders in these fields were trying new steels and not making it a life style to cling to the past, or another culture. This beginner may not understand that a leader's recommendation is one of life style or culture, and not technically driven. This situation in woodworking discourages experimentation and possible improvement and that is the most important point I want to make.

Re: agreement, and a comment on the state of affai

Joel

>We do special order carbon steel lathe tools and there are a fair number of people who much prefer them to HSS. with the modern penchant for turning all sorts of crazy stuff, some of it abrasive at high speed, HSS does make sense.

We make mortise chisels out of D2 and lots of people think it's the cat's pajamas but others whose opinion I repect ask me ever other week to run a batch in 01.

The single best chisel I have ever used. Trivially easy to sharpen on regular waterstons and holds an edge forever was a chisels by Nishiki, the Japanese master. I liked it so much I bought a set of dovetail chisels for myself (something I never do because I have 8 million chisels) but I can't recommend them for a person starting out because they have a learning curve and are too expensive to experiment with.

I think there is tons of innovation in tools today. I also think that customers as a group are becoming more sophisticated and setting the performance bar higher and higher. But edge retention is only one part of the equation and it comes at a tradeoff in other areas of performance.

Arts and Mysteries

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Bill, I did once mention on this forum that our older tools were designed with oilstones in mind and that Japanese tools were designed with waterstones. I think if you are disappointed with their performance then that is one place to look.

Although I have enough training in science to appreciate your point of view, I see sharpening as more of an art. Over years of working, craftsmen, both the toolmakers and the woodworkers, notice small things and adjust their techniques in subtle ways to achieve better results. Some of these things lend themselves to scientific explanations and others do not. From years of experience, my opinion is that sharpening is not as simple as measuring the grit size of the last abrasive used.

I can think of more than a dozen new miracle sharpening systems that have emerged in the time I've been a woodworker. Some are still on the market some are not. I suppose some spend a few hundred dollars every few years trying them all out, but most take a wait and see attitude.

Re: agreement, and a comment on the state of affai

Joel

>I should mention something else.

While I think there is a lot of innovation in woodworking tools there is also a lot, maybe more, of rear guard manuvering. What I mean by that is trying to protect and rediscover classic tools in classic quality and classic techniques. To a large extent the most innovating thing that has happened in the woodworking hand tool industry in the past 25 years has been the realization that if a company revives a tool, properly, with high quality the market will reward them.

And it isn't easy. We find that that as more and more manufacturing has moved to Asia it gets harder and harder for us to get steel in the sizes and alloys we need. The skills we need to produce tools are also vanishing. So we (and everyone else we know) are constantly looking for skilled labor. My Nishiki chisels (mentioned in my last post) were made by a guy in his 60's, with no apprentices, and when he retires that's it. Some other chisel maker will no doubt try to take up the slack but as the infrastructure of hand tool making breaks down each generation finds it harder and harder to duplicate what was once a pretty standard item - a professional grade chisel.

Re: agreement, and a comment on the state of affai

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>There are way too many Japanese master craftsmen who don't have apprentices. I think part of this is their refusal to apprentice their daughters, but that's not a huge factor. However, there are very many who do have apprentices fairly well along the way. Also, a couple of the best, the absolute best, are training craftsmen here. So I don't think this level of craft will die, it will just get more expensive.

Also, personally I don't look for contemporary repros. This is of no value. I do look for contemporary makers who make superior tools, preferably with improvements over the old. I also know I'm in a large minority among woodworkers, all those who are apparently still susceptible to Stanley advertising, even when it hasn't run (or has it?) for 20 years. And it's hard to argue tradition, using what Dad used, etc. Women have an advantage here since Mom never used Stanley. :)

Bill has so far convinced me that if I were to take up blacksmithing, I should look at CPM3V (Is this right?) seriously, maybe even try laminating it (Is this possible, Bill?). He's got me almost convinced that after this natural waterstone experimentation I might want to try the diamond paste route, my main objection being the grinding as step 1, but I suspect I can substitute stones.

Pam

Re: PS

paul womack

>the problem with these stones is that people used them to do what a power grinder was better suited for, ie major material removal.

Agreed, but I've been to trade shows where the vendors are demonstrating and recommending them for back flattening due to the high rate of removal.

And they do sell them in grits far too coarse for any thing I'd call honing.

BugBear

OT on masters not taking apprentices

VTAndy3

>This is off-topic, but I thought that I'd mention it. I have German and Austrian friends who went through their apprenticeships in various handicrafts -- copper roofers, wood sculpturs, carpenters, landscapers (which includes some masonry) -- and became true "journeymen" (well, some of them were journey_wo_men). (Most German journeymen simply go on to work in their field, but a couple hundred per year actually hit the road in a very special outfits and work in as many environments as possible over 2-3 years). I've had it explained to me that over there, being a "master" relates as much to economic training and responsibility as it does to skill, if not more. This means that they are required to take on apprentices (and pay for their schooling for the theoretical part of their training), or else they pay a penalty (not sure if this is from their trade organizations or from the govt). So as long as some companies like "Two Cherries" keep their manufacturing in Germany, I'm fairly certain that there will always be a fresh crop of apprentices.

However, I realize that this is not the same level of craftsmanship as Joel mentioned in regards to the Japanese masters. And it also might be possible that the system promotes a kind of status quo of quality (how many of us feel that Kirschen are good vs. how many feel they are the bees' knees?) at the expense of striving for excellence. Perhaps it will be the striving of individuals (a Tom Lie-Nielsen of Japanese tools?) that will bring in the next 'crop'.

-Andy

Re: Arts and Mysteries

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Twenty years ago Toshio Odate wrote:

" the secret forging processes guarantee that each blacksmith's blades will be different, thus requiring different stones. But for the shokunin, the matching of the blade with the stone is like a marriage of the perfect bride and groom. The best cutting edge is achieved when a brittle, sensitive blade is sharpened on a soft, gentle stone."

I can't see a person of this sensitivity buying a one-size-fits-all sharpening system. And I can't see this kind of craftsman using a brutal grinder on a precious edge.

Re: OT on masters not taking apprentices

Joel

>An apprenticship means something different nowadays. At least part of the reason guys like Frank Klauz, THe Iles Brothers, Michel Auriou and the various Japanese masters are so good is that they started when then were 14. by the time they hit their 20's they were skilled, and being family members had a chance to work at a high level from the start. By the time they reach thier 40's they have been doing it for 30 years. That's how handskills and efficency are learned. THere is a big difference between a beginning master in his mid 20's who is effiencent and can build a business and raise a family at the same time than a late starter who is trying to learn the craft (assemble tools) all while trying to make a living at the same time.

The big difference you see in practice is speed and hand skills. We will get a new generation of Japanese toolmakers but I bet they will be like the modern knifemakers - more interested in making expensive, exotic collectibles that never get used than a high quality user tool on a production basis. There just isn't enough profit in the latter unless you really are a master and can work very very effienently. Also the tradtional craftsman had to be accomstomed to and enjoy repeditive work. the modern master seems to want to be an artist and always to specialized stuff.

THere is also a stigma these days to kids who want to work with their hands so I think it's pretty common that one goes to college, studies nothing of important and then only later realizes that becoming a craftsperson is hard work but very rewarding. And that unfortunately is lost time and why there are no trainees.

So, the conclusion about tools steels is

bill tindall, E. TN

>There is no fundamental property of tool steels that would make them unable to be sharpened to as high a degree as the popular O-1. I even found a reference where the grain size of M2 is reported to be as small or smaller than O-1 which should put to rest that unfounded objection. Lets us all strive to stamp out this myth where we find it so as to not disuade persons from exploring the potential benefits of tool steels in woodworking.

I could also point out two benefits that are not controversial. Many tool steels are more abrasion resistant than carbon steel and there is little risk in grinding many of them with a power grinder. (because they are tempered at about 1000F, which is white hot, and as long as grinding doesn't get the tool above 1000F, there is no effect on temper, unlike carbon steel and A2 which is tempered at only about 400 F) . Tool steels enable safe, easy and rapid power grinding.

Re: OT on masters not taking apprentices

Norman (Metcalfe, Ont.)

>Right on Joel:

"There is also a stigma these days to kids who want to work with their hands so I think it's pretty common that one goes to college, studies nothing of important and then only later realizes that becoming a craftsperson is hard work but very rewarding. And that unfortunately is lost time and why there are no trainees."

This is also what I find today. I have a few nephew and nieces and it seems they are programmed into thinking that sitting at a desk job and not dirtying their hands is the "correct career", everything else is beneath them. I see this in other teenagers today . I can't put my finger on when the phenomena of shunning trades began to occur and for what reasons.

A few years ago, automation and computers were touted as relieving us of the day to day chores of living and to eliminate any human involvement in manufacturing. This might have been when this began to occur, the thinking that western society needed to get away from trade-related work.

The tide is turning however I feel..

Norman

Smell test

Adam Cherubini

>Bill,

I've been reading this thread with some interest. As an engineer (which I would define as a scientist who has to actually deliver stuff), your conclusion just doesn't pass the smell test. I hear ya about the metallurgy, but when I sharpen a HSS lathe tool, I know its not the same as the high carbon lathe tool. It doesn't feel the same on the grinder, on the stone, or on the lathe. The HSS feels gummy on the grinder and just doesn't take a good edge on the stone. It loses its edge fast too. I much prefer the carbon tools.

I have a really nice LV block plane with an A2 blade. Its my only new plane and its a beaut. But blindfolded, I could detect that blade in use or on a stone. Its hard to sharpen and I don't think I get a great edge on it (which is different than saying one can't be gotten). While the precision of the body is unparalleled, I tend to use my Stanley SW with its original blade more often.

While my head tells me you are probably right, I have difficulty squaring the science with my experience. Call it myth if you choose. I'm reluctant to dismiss such things too quickly.

Adam

Price

woodburnbob

>Help us out a little here, Bill, on price comparison.

I'm thinking of a 2" wide by 6" long plane blade comparison.

Onlinemetals A2 at 2" X 18" of 5/32" (0.156") @ $29.75. That's 3 blades at about $10 apiece.

Onlinemetals O1 at 2" X 18" of 5/32 (0.156") @ $24.66. That's 3 blades at about $8 apiece.

AKS Blade Steel has CPM 3V 9.5" X 6.5" of 0.167" at $61, That's about 5 blades at about $12 apiece.

This begs the question of heat treating costs, but is this comparison of price about right in what you've been doing?

Certainly present before the '60s in some places

woodburnbob

>Regarding the question of when the anti-skill, anti-craftman career attitudes began, that is.

I was in high school '61-'65 in small town rural Oregon. Plans for a future in farming, the trades or the military was clearly considered d�class� or seriously eccentric at the time. Sadly, I don't think we had any real life exposure to craftsmen or the like. Maybe my isolation was an East Coast/West Coast phenomena.

Of coure, I recall the parish priest asking my third grade class who wanted to be a priest when they grew up. More than half the boys shot their arms in the air. Then the girls were asked who would be a nun. Again, fully half the girls raised their hands. In the end no priests or nuns emerged from the Catholic school cocoons containing my classmates. There were a couple girls who went on to live what I'd consider a "hot" life, and one fellow, I think, made it to the state pen.