Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge
Re: Out of curiosity...
Michael Brady
>Erotic magnetism?! Where's that contest? That's something you can never have too much of, ya know. If I win can I choose either the $100 or the aformentioned magnetism? I'll be sure to use a an iron plane rather than one of those non-magnetic/erotic manganese bronze jobs. Are there any groupies at these contests? I'm visualizing back-stage passes and autographs. I'll take a Sharpie along with my cake of parafin plane sole wax, just in case.
:)
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>
Re: Longest curl contest
Chris Scholz
>Talking about spoke shaves, here's another idea to "cheat": Some folks consider Chinese planes to be essentially big spoke shaves; some of HNT Gordon's planes are essentially modern interpretations of traditional Chinese plane designs.
Re: Longest curl contest
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>Which "some folks?" Terry's planes are not big spokeshaves, very different behavior and geometry. They're more like western woodies than like spokeshaves. Now, Japanese spokeshaves do seem more plane like than western spokeshave like.
Terry's planes are more a combination of many types of wooden planes, not simply Chinese or Japanese, and they behave accordingly. Like many things which appear simple, common as dirt, there is true sophistication in there.
Pam
HNT Gordon
Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)
>Terry's planes are not big spokeshaves, very different behavior and geometry. They're more like western woodies than like spokeshaves. Now, Japanese spokeshaves do seem more plane like than western spokeshave like.
Hi Pam. I agree. Terry's background was in the use of Chinese planes, so his design borrows from them. But there is a significant difference in the high angle beds of his planes. I tend to use them more like a traditional woodie, although Terry showed me how to hold them in the Chinese manner that their design encourages.
My old smoother:
His spokeshaves, on the other hand, are indeed more like planes - well the flat one is. The round is not. These are also held in the Chinese manner.
Here is one of his spokeshaves.
I have been trying to complete a few HNT Gordon reviews (first the Smoother and the Trying Plane in one, and the spokeshaves in another), but have been so pressed for time at this stage of the year. I am still researching info on Chinese planes. Do you have anything in this line that you can either direct me to, or send me? I would be most greatful.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Re: HNT Gordon
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>I'm not sure what the Chinese manner is. Usually I don't use the pass through handle, push and/or pull without. But every now and then, especially for the try plane when used on a shooting board, I do. I normally push in that case; but in other situations with the handle, I push or pull. I only have one Chinese plane, a huge 3' rebate, that I've never used (the blade is garbage).
Other than that, I often use the palm and regular smoothers as scrapers.
Pam
Re: Furring plane?
paul womack
>Heh. In practise, for smoothing use, the sole relief is made just a little more than the shaving you normally take...
BugBear
that was WAY bad!
bill tindall, E. TN
>
Re: HNT Gordon
Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)
>I'm not sure what the Chinese manner is.
Hi Pam
Here is a picture from FWW that illustrates the use of the handles in pushing. Obviously not HNT Gordon .... :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Re: HNT Gordon
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>Thanks, Derek, that would be tough to pull by yourself. :)
Pam
Re: HNT Gordon *LINK*
Chris Scholz
>More on Chinese plane? According to legend Lu Ban introduced the plane, chalk line and saw, etc., this was in around 500BC. His teachings were collected in the Lu Ban Jing that was written around 1000AD. (Disclaimer: I am far form expert in the field, please correct me if I am wrong. Eyeballing images on HNT Gordon's website, some of his planes strongly resemble the planes I have engountered in China. There might be subtle differences the could make HNT Gordon's planes an entire plane category in it's own.)
Attached another images of a Chinese planes seen in China. Bed in 45 degree, mouth less than 0.5mm (0.02 in for readers in the US), brass wear strip in front of mouth, price paid to aquire? Lets just say it was very inexpensive.
Chris in Atlanta, GA flatterd to hear that his image was published in FWW and wondering which issue this might have been.
http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/categories.php?cat_id=283&page=1
A Passle of Chinese planes *LINK*
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>Have you seen these?
More Chinese planes
Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)
>Hi Pam
Those are made in the Mujingfang factory. I have a couple, a 45 degree jack and a 60 degree mini smoother (almost identical to the HNT Gordon palm smoother), both of which are simply excellent planes.
I think that Mujingfang have a lot of thanks to give to Lyn Mangiameli, for his high angle smoother review (in which one did so well).
Here is a picture of my Mujingfang jack together with a fine 10 foot shaving (in some wonderful pine I found a few years ago, and turned into a loft bed for my son).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Re: More Chinese planes
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>Yep all around. I got the impression, maybe from a look-a-like I saw in Woodcraft a couple of years ago, that the blades were much thinner than Terry's. Looking at them now, they could be just a little thinner.
That's a great shaving. Mujingfang rules!
Pam
Re: More Chinese planes
Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)
>Pam
Terry's are 1/4" thick and used without a cap iron. The Mujingfangs are about 1/8" thick. The jack is used with a cap iron.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Well, there's your article. :)
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>
Re: More Chinese planes
Chris Scholz
>Mujingfang...
I've been trying to locate that factory when I was in China. Supposedly they are located near Hong Kong. None of the craftsman I talked to in China knew anything about Mujingfang. "Mu" is wood, anybody know what "jing fang" means? Does anybody know anything about the company or is this the Western equivalent of MLR?
Another sidenote: When you buy a plane in the Chinese equivalent of you local ACME store, you'll find a box with plane bodies, another box with blades, another box with wedges, etc. Chip breaker (capiron) or not? Completely your choice, you mix and match until it fits your needs. By the way, the blades you buy locally appear to be excellent (I don't know anything about the blades that are exported to the West.)
Until approx. 1500 the Chinese Empire had a ban on imported hardwood. After that any self respecting master cabinet maker used at least huali (together with laohuali and huanghuali, tradename describing mostly dalbergia odorifera), tielimu ("ironwood", sometimes associated with mesua ferrea) or wumu (ebenacea family). If you were a wealty scholar you ordered zitan furniture (pterocarpus santalinus). The whole thing was put together without glue, nails or dowels.
So I guess it is safe to say that the Chinese knew their craft and had superb woodworking tools. Much of this knowledge and technology seems to be lost today.
Re: A Passle of Chinese planes
Chris Scholz
>Yes, I've seen that website. But I never cold wrap my head around the distinction between "Hongkong Style", "Taiwanese Style", "Chinese Style" and "who knows what style". These terms seem to be used interchangable and not consistently. In my opinion much of this is either lack of knowledge or marketing related.
In general the Chinese woodworkers don't seem to care about "style" as long as it works and gives good results. It is completely incomprehensible for most folks in China that anybody would afford to buy a decent power tool (or easier still, just hire a carpenter) would be interested in hand tools.Things seem to be changing though. I hope to get a chance to go back this spring to learn and hopefully understand a little more.
Re: More Chinese planes
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>When you buy a plane in the Chinese equivalent of you local ACME store, you'll find a box with plane bodies, another box with blades, another box with wedges, etc. Chip breaker (capiron) or not? Completely your choice, you mix and match until it fits your needs.
Very interesting standardization, Chris. But how does a 1/4" blade fit in a dai made for a 1/8" blade? Or is it that you buy the parts and customize the dai accordingly, that the blade abutments are only cut as wide as the thinnest blade?
Pam
He bows, blushing to show his humility
Bill Houghton, retired fun in Sebastopol, CA
>
Re: More Chinese planes
Chris Scholz
>Pam,
if I remember correctly they had two types of blades in that specific shop, one was premium quality the other was regular quality. With exception of the packaging both types of blade looked just about the same to me. Both were laminated blades 3mm thick (I guess that is approx. 0.12in in here in the US), very easy to sharpen (my sharpening skills are rather basic, still struggling to get an A2 blade reasonably sharp). The wedge was rough cut and you need to trim it to your own needs, so if you choose to use a capiron you trim off more material to make it fit.
The mouth was square and accurate with a brass wear strip (see attached photograph), the sole was very flat, everything else has to be tuned to fit.
In short it looks to me like a plane that is built to be used, accurate where it matters and including the premium blade still two orders of magnitude less expensive than the Gordon plane.
Re: More Chinese planes
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>Thanks, Chris, a much more limited selection than what it sounded like in your previous message, but a good kit nevertheless. I probably should buy one, but find myself overloaded with smoothers right now. I almost bought a tiny Chinese plow, but it looked just a little too rough, like something I would have made my first try. :)
In short it looks to me like a plane that is built to be used, accurate where it matters and including the premium blade still two orders of magnitude less expensive than the Gordon plane.
I don't think this comparison is a fair one. Terry's blades are at least twice as thick, solid cutting steel, precisely fitted, ready to go out of the box, and he lives and works in a developed country where all things are more expensive.
Pam
Re: More Chinese planes
Chris Scholz
>Absolutely, Pam. I think of it as this plane compares to Gordon like today's Stanley compares to a LN. Same family but entirely different customers, distribution channels, volumes, etc.
Re: More Chinese planes
Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX
>True, except the Mujingfang work much better than the new Stanleys.
Pam
Re: More Chinese planes
thomd
>I really like Chinese planes. I have a bunch. I've been picking them up for quite a while, but it's slow progress from Canada. We have huge Chinese and Japanese comunities, but bringing in hand tools appears to be something they leave to Rob Lee (not that kind of Lee). I like the chinese style, and find it perfect for shooting edges. I do periodically painfully injure didgits when I forget that out there on the spring boards they are very vulnerable.
I got interested a long time ago when Jason Beebe wrote a couple of very interesting articles for FWW, unfortunately that was that, and while I believe he is still working out there somewhere in Oregon, I haven't heard anything from him since. He seemed to be progressing towards a book.