Chopping vs drilling out a mortise

Re: Japanese Technique and more

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>The ones you show are temple carpenter's mortise chisels, probably much closer to chutaki/firmers than cabinet making mortise chisels. Of course, I love Tasai-san's center protrusion of the tool steel, I assume in an attempt to toughen them up with "bracing."

What they show as carpenters' mortise chisels I'd call atsu nomi or chutaki/firmers; whereas the cabinetmakers' mortise chisels are what I've touted as being trapezoid with sharp arrises all around.

Pam

blending

david.marcus.brown

>Have you tried a mixture of both techniques? I used to drill & pare. Then I bought a hollow chisel mortiser. Now I'm partial to chopping with a proper English bolstered mortise chisel. After reading an article by Chris Schwarz, I'm thinking of drilling the ends of the mortise and chiseling out the waste between the two holes.

Besides, pounding out a mortise w/ a chisel and a big mallet is soooo much more satisfying than drilling and paring -- personally, I hate paring mortise walls.

Re: Japanese Technique and more

Dave Burnard

>TFG - I know that one. Timber Framers Guild (www.tfguild.org) - I think they have a forum site - but it's probably members only and I've let my membership lapse.

Re: TFG

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Thanks, Dave, should have figured out that one. I've visited their site but found no hint of a classifieds forum, but it may be hidden for members only.

Pam

"Bird" = Lonnie Bird?

Tom Sontag - St. Louis

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Re: Japanese Technique and more

wilbur

>As it turns out, I just got a new Japan Woodworker catalog today, so I thumbed through it looking for other mortise chisels. They have mortise chisels by Matsumura that are described as being "made with a square section" in widths up to 1 inch. There's also some "Heavy Duty Mortise Chisels" made by Teiichiro Ohkubo, which look like they are square in cross section up to 1 inch.

In Toshio Odate's book there is a description of atsu nomi, but in the description they are described as having beveled edges, like oire nomi. He also describes a mortise chisel with square edges. I would say that due to their cross section, the Tasai Temple Builder's Mortise Chisels have more in common with the cabinet making mortise chisels, which also have a square cross section, than with atsu nomi, although I'm sure both could be used for whacking out a mortise.

Re: Japanese Technique and more

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>In Toshio Odate's book there is a description of atsu nomi, but in the description they are described as having beveled edges, like oire nomi.

Yes, that's what I said. Atsu nomi are more like item B on page 40, called there Post and Beam chisels. By definition, temple builder's mortise chisels are used to build temples. That is, cut massive mortises. These Tasai chisels are gorgeous and certainly worth a try, but you don't need that much chisel for making cabinets, they are 1/2" and larger.

My point was that cabinetry is not the place for large square mortise chisels, the trapezoid shape is superior in this application.

Pam

Aha! Of course. Thanks, Tom.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

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Re: Chopping vs drilling out a mortise

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I forgot to mention Adam's idea that mortising is better done without chopping at all. He uses the English style mortising chisels and digs and pries. You can probably do a search on this forum for some combination of Adam Cherubini, mortise, mortising, etc. He posted it sometime in the last two or three years.

Pam

Re: Japanese Technique and more

wilbur

>So if I understand you correctly, if you are looking to chop a mortise 1/2" or bigger, you would prefer to use a chisel with more of a bevel to the sides? If that's the case, why wouldn't that principle apply to a 1/4" mortise as well? I do have a 1/4" mortise chisel, and to me it seems that the mortise chisel does better than a 1/4" bevel edged chisel in chopping out a mortise.

The reason I'm asking is that my next project involves joining some 4x4 beams with ~1" mortise and tenons, and I was pondering as to the usefulness of getting a 1" mortise chisel. Just trying to learn something.

Re: Japanese Technique and more

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I don't know that I'd prefer more bevel, that's just the way they usually come. But for me, the 1/2" marker (actually, 12 mm) is irrevelant. I'm making furniture and building a timber framed workshop, I use <=12mm and >=30mm. I love the looks of the Tasai temple building chisels, but have no use for them (thank goodness, at >$200 a pop) given their 1/2"-1" available sizes.

I do know that I extremely dislike the square chisels. It was stupid of me to have bought that set since they came in 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and 1". Bah, if only I'd known then what I know now. Anyhow, I hate them because they split the woods I use for building shop tools like saw benches (various pines and cedars). YMMV

As for 4X4 joinery, I've been very happy with the 25mm, 30mm, and 36mm atsu nomi (timber framing) and chutaki (carpenter). I have a mix of Tasai, Funahiro, and Fujihiro. For your 4X4, you'll probably want to go with 30mm. I think you'll be happiest with atsu nomi and/or chutaki. If instead you go with 25mm (think it's a little small for 4X4 stuff), why not try the biggest Tasai temple and report back. I'll be drooling.

Pam