Chopping vs drilling out a mortise

Re: Chopping vs drilling out a mortise

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I measure the mortise chisel directly to get both tenon and mortise sizes. Chopping with that chisel is easier and more reliable, for me, than the drill and pare routine.

Pam

Re: Chopping vs drilling out a mortise

mikew

>I use a brace and bit when working on odd shaped pieces. Heck sometimes on "square" pieces.

Other times I bang them out. Sometimes I use a WoodRat. Until I sold it, sometimes I used a PM mortiser.

Why limit oneself to a single method?

Take care, Mike

Re: Chopping vs drilling out a mortise

George Makowski

>Sam, The Latins had a saying, de gustibus non dispuntandi (sp.?), one does not argue about choices of taste or preference. Drilling and paring mortices is the standard technique described in many books on woodworking going back over a century, especially for large ones (timber framing size). It is what I was taught by my father who learned in the European Sloyd tradition. If it works for you do it and peace be with you.

Chopping mortices, especially smaller ones, also works well and can be very fast with sharp tools and good layout. It takes only one tool. The chisel is self-registering after an couple of initial cuts. The mortice is virtually complete with the last chisel cut. So, it can provide economies of time.

Each method, I believe, is part of a well-rounded woodworker's vocabulary of techniques. We choose what works best depending on the requirements of purpose, time, and accuracy.

Good morticing!

George in AL

Re: Chopping vs drilling out a mortise

SamW

>Your point about self-registration is the reason I tried chopping. My mallet technique must be off, as I find the chisel tends to twist in my hand as I drive it in. Tends to chew up the sides and enlarge the mortice. Ditto with levering out the chips.

I can certainly see the attraction of chopping over drilling and paring for a narrow or shallow mortise.

Thanks for the responses. I am trying to improve as a woodworker, and I appreciate your help.

Re: Chopping vs drilling out a mortise

Dan Donaldson

>Was the chisel that you were using specifically a mortising one? They are much thicker, which helps with the registration. Thinner, bench chisels, would be more likely to have the twisting issue that you are describing.

Re: Chopping vs drilling out a mortise

Ron in Kokomo

>Check to see that your chisel edge is plumb and square to the sides

Re: Chopping vs drilling out a mortise

SamW

>I have been using a mortise chisel. Actually I have two: one with a square section and the other a sash mortise chisel. I will check that the square is square.

A related question: My mortise chisels are, oh, a good 12" long, including blade and handle. I have often wondered if a shorter chisel wouldn't be easier to control. I have seen "pig stickers" in catalogs -- they seem to be short and deep. Can anyone offer a comparison of these two types of mortise chisels?

Re: Chopping vs drilling out a mortise

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I agree with Pam that chopping is easier and more precise, but this comes with a hefty price tag. The time spent achieving the skill to do it deftly and neatly can make the price of the finest mortise chisels seem small. Whether it is worth it for you depends on how fast a learner you are, how good you are already with chisel and mallet, and how much you enjoy working to improve your skill. In other skills, we often see statements on this forum like "I tried this technique once and it didn't work as well as my way". A person who thinks like this will not learn the most sophisticated methods.

Re: Chopping vs drilling out a mortise *LINK*

Roy Anderson

>I find that drilling one hole to give a relief space for the chopped wood to move into is the best starting point for chopping a mortise. This is the best of both worlds. The chopped mortise comes out dimensionally very close, with a uniform depth and rather fast. The paring cleanup is minimized. This is the method recommended by Jeff Gorman at his fantastic site on chopping mortises (see link).

After learning this method and getting my registered mortising chisel truly sharp and square, I began to have more success. Anyway, both methods work.

I have heard that even though you may have a registered mortising chisel, if it has a round handle, it is more difficult to keep in allignment. If it has an eliptical handle, it is easier to keep in allignment. I have a round handle and it has taken a little getting used to. I may or may not go for the eliptical handle.


One hole drilled method of chopping a mortise

Thank you Roy. That's a great link.

V Parisian

>

Re: Japanese Technique

thomd

>I think the chisel method is faster and better and not all that hard under the right circumstances, mostly pretty tight work as one finds in cabinets. Let's say you are cutting a 1/4" mortice is it really going to be so wonderful to drill a jillian 3/16" holes when there isn't any power problem blowing through that material anyway?

On the other hand, try mortising an Oak house frame where the mortices are 1.25" 8" long and maybe 10 inches through. There is a reason why those guys had drilling machines even before electricity was available.

If one looks at the Japanese technique, I can tell you two things:

1) Above 1/2" a lot of the mortising sets go bevel edge. It took me 20 years to round out my mortising chisels with 1" square chisels (that's a chunk). That may be mostly a comentary on the imports that struggled over here, but either way I get the feeling that a lot of the sets break at the half inch mark for a reason. Some of the timber chisels I have seen are long, but not really beefy.

2) The japanese have dozens of semi portable drills or chain bitted mortising machines. There must be dozens if not hundreds of models. I've seen brochures for brands I had never heard of that had half a dozen models. So for the big stuff they do go to drills or mills, of some description.

Hey Sam...

Matt- Los Angeles

>try taking tiny little bites all the way down the length of your mortice. just tapping the chisel to get the smallest little chip. Then your mortise will be "self registered" I was having the same trouble you were until a more experienced fellow I know told me this trick.

Get your mortise defined with small bites and then you can be more aggressive. This works very well for me. I have never been a fan of the drill and pare method, no particular reason other than I am faster when i chop.

good luck,

matt - los angeles

heck, I use both

bill tindall, E. TN

>I find it easier to drill one hole which provides an indication of depth and clearance for the first few deep chips to go into. With the clearance hole I can make my first few chops deeped.

I never could pare a straight side.

Re: Japanese Technique

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I think the Japanese mortise chisels are only available in 3/4-1/2" sizes because it's rare that you would be working with greater than 1-1/2" thick wood in furniture/cabinet work. That is, they're simply not needed. However, there are the atsu nomi and chutaki in much larger sizes for your oak house framer. This seems to be true, too, in western mortising chisels, at least the ones I've seen are less than 3/4". This is a big problem for those who like to collect full sets of chisels.

About the huge square mortising chisels, I bought four of these a few years ago and don't like them at all. They seem to split some softer woods. Keep meaning to sell these things...

Please, please tell me about some new, cheaper than Makita, groove cutters.

Pam

saw its sides off

bill tindall, E. TN

>I had one of the Two cherries mortise chisels with a gagantuan round handle. I sawed its sides off on the band saw, filed it down a bit and made it sort of elliptical. It felt and worked better.

Re: Japanese Technique and more

thomd

>My experience is that the greater than 1/2" cabinet style mortice chisels are easy to find, they just look like slightly heavier bench chisels, and don't have the parallel sides. Though part of that is probably a strength issue. It doen't really prove anything. I did see a Japanese carpenter who seemed very fluid on American Maters, who did make his small cabinet sized mortices by drilling out with an auger and following up afterwards. No coment is perfect there are an infinity of ways and means. I was just looking at the Bird dovetail video. I saw several things that just strike me as incorrect, not good practice, beyond the pail. Great results though. Good video too.

One thing that hadn't come up when I first read this thread was that you can auger and chop the mortices afterwards. On small pieces that is often the best technique if you want to auger/drill them, not paring the sides. So you don't avoid the problems of learning the "correct" technique.

As far as cheaper than the Makita, I can't tell you that will be the case. but there are many alternatives. I thought the Ryobi was cheaper than the Makita? You could ask your Japanese contacts, I think makita has several hundred woodworking tools they don't sell over here. A dealer told me 800, though that sounds kinda impossible. Anyway there is lots of stuff available, we never see. Do you hang out with the TFG? You could probably track down a second hand one there.

Re: Japanese Technique

Dave Burnard

>For small mortices I rarely drill either, unless the mortice is essentially just a deep *square* hole. For furniture sized mortices, I don't use mortice chisels - but I think folks who do a lot of repetitive mortices like for shoji screens or slatted construction do like to use them.

I agree that the larger sizes of mortice chisels aren't what's used for japanese timber sized joinery - it's the atsu-nomi which are often called timber chisels. They are longer than morticing chisels and I think much easier to use in a timber sized joint.

That said I used a drill to rough out the mortices in my timber frame, and there was still a huge amount of timber chisel use in cleaning those up mortices, and in making all of the housings and scarfs, etc. I made good use of a corner chisel, and used my timber slicks quite a bit.

Re: Japanese Technique

Dave Burnard

>Thom hits the nail on the head - there as many ways to do one task as there are people doing it. Not all of them are correct or effective - but a surprising number of them are. Enough so that you can learn something new just by watching someone else.

Re: Japanese Technique

thomd

>"I agree that the larger sizes of mortice chisels aren't what's used for japanese timber sized joinery - it's the atsu-nomi which are often called timber chisels. They are longer than morticing chisels and I think much easier to use in a timber sized joint."

Just to be clear, I wasn't claiming they were. I was saying there are both 1" timber chisels sold for use in mortises I should imagine (at least to go by the catalog), and 1" cabinet length mortise chisels. In both cases the comon format is not parallel sided and nearly square sectioned, at least among those I have seen. That seems to me to say there is an expectation they will be used in a different way as the size increases. Just a guess. With the square sectioned and parallel sided mortising chisels I have, they are basically too fat to use in drilled out mortices, to work the cheeks, being very nearly as thick as they are wide.

Re: Japanese Technique and more

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I think, though of course I could be wrong, that we're talking across each other. I think the atsu nomi are bevel edge, heavier versions of the bench chisels. So I think we agree.

I bought the ancient Barnes mortiser for precisely the multitude of tiny mortises in shoji and craftsman style furniture. In that case, while I've got a couple of small mortising chisels, it's simply too tiresome to chop the multitudes. At least that's what I say today, may change my mind tomorrow. However, it's not necessary to trim the mortises the Barnes produces, these things use what appear to be chisels, so it's simply a slightly mechanized mortice chopping process.

Bird dovetail video? Who's Bird? And what's TFG?

Pam

Re: Chopping vs drilling out a mortise

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I don't like drilling first because I find there is more room for error. Drills like to follow grain. I do use the method however,when necessary. It just takes a bit more care.

As to chopping problems. Just like my drilling problem. A little more care is needed. There is a method to getting it right.The right chisel for you helps alot. Those "pig-sticker" styles you mention are very common in the used tool market for a reason. They work well. I tried the Sorby style and it's like trying to turn screws with a butter knife.

Take a look at toolsforworkingwood.com and find the section on Ray Iles mortising chiserls. It may help you.---Jack

Re: Japanese Technique and more

wilbur

>The amount of bevel in a Japanese mortise chisel may just be a matter of how the maker decides to make them. Here's a picture of some mortise chisels made by Tasai, and they certainly look like the sides are more or less square. In the catalog from The Japan Woodworker, there are other Japanese mortise chisels that have the same square shape, even in larger sizes.

Re: Chopping vs drilling out a mortise

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Jack, that's a really good article for someone who wants to know about mortising chisels. I've found that both the English style and Japanese are most satisfactory, probably due to the trapezoid shape with sharp arrises that help cut the wood. I have several of both (the English are ancient, most came with rounded bevels). I also think some really old English style are laminated, but it's not so easy to see as the Japanese laminations, so I'm not sure.

Pam

laminations

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I have a few old ones and most are laminated.I'd have to check,but out of 6 or 7 I think one isn't laminated.---Jack