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flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

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Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#51

Re: In practice

David Charlesworth


>Greg,

Good to hear from you.

I am still not sure precisely how they are generated.

The only way I can create the 1 thou" hollow which I chose to call straight, is by hollowing first with stop shavings and then taking no more that one or two through shavings. If I take five or ten through shavings the bump returns.

I can't create perfect straightness so choose to err on the side of hollowness as this is infinitely preferable to bumpiness!

This is the technique I was taught 30 odd years ago, and most craftsmen I know in UK use it.

I "shoot" veneer joints without a guide for the plane so use exactly the same technique. Good point about the shooting board, here the plane is guided.

best wishes,

David

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#52

Re: You could test this, couldn't you?

paul womack


>It would seem easy enough to test: if you had a surface plate or similarly flat surface, you could have a friend see if s/he could fit a feeler gauge under the sole as you flex the plane resting on the reference surface.

Much easier to bridge the plane across a coupla' parallels and use a dial gauge (assuming we're talking about a machinists shop here)

BugBear

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#53

Re: An Experiment

paul womack


>There were many fascinating reposponses and analyses in this thread.

Did *anyone* try David's experiment?

I mean, I like analyses as much as the next man (probably more:-), but we need some facts to start on.

BugBear

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#54

Re: bending an LN

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI


>The thing to do would be to set steel blocks about 24" apart and set the plane on top of them. Then set up a dial indicator so that it is touching the plane sole at rest. Now put your hands on the tote and knob and push down. Now I am curious how much I can bend a plane. I would probably try this on a cast iron surface so there is not much give in the surface.

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#55

Re: bending an LN

VTAndy4


>Interesting idea, Moses. I'm also wondering whether some of the effects attributed to bending the plane are mostly effects of distributing the weight in certain ways. I'm not doubting that the planes can be bent, I'm just wondering whether the effects have more to do with where the hands doing the bending are putting more weight down into the work.

-Andy

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#56

Re: An Experiment

VTAndy4


>Paul,

Warren said he tried it (above). I tried it on an ash board and got the result that David predicted.

I have a theory (guess?) that the you can also plane down the entire board and get it flat if you really exaggerate the shifts in weight distribution, i.e. all weight on the toe at the beginning, equal weight down the board, then all weight at the heel at the end. If you really exaggerate this (perhaps even out of habit if you have done a LOT of planing) then, in effect, you are basically doing the "stopped" shavings that David is advocating. So I think that it is possible that someone would learn to do this without too much thought behind it, rather than having to consciously plane a concave edge first, then plane flat across 2 shavings.

Does that make sense?

-Andy

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#57

I tried the experiment

Warren in Lancaster, PA


>I tried the experiment yesterday, but only had time to make a cursory post. I started with a sawn edge that was slightly concave. When the edge was nearly straight, I adjusted the plane to take rather fine shavings. When I could take continuous shavings I checked with a straightedge and it was straight. Because this board was already slightly concave before I started, I never did any "stop cuts".

For the experiment I kept the same fine setting on the plane. I concentrated on taking an even shaving; I was not worrying about where I put my weight. As I was taking off the shavings I tried to imagine how one could alter the flatness while taking such fine shavings, but I could not. After 10 continuous shavings I tested with the straightedge and it looked the same as before. There was no rocking of the straightedge.

I think the technique of deliberately making a slight hollow with stop cuts before final jointing passes is a good one and I often use it. For a long board with an irregular edge I think it is wise to check with a straight edge before doing any work in order to get the lay of the land. Sometimes work with a foreplane is necessary for high ends or for a hump.

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#58

Re: In a perfect world

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX


>OK, then that's wrong. The planer outfeed is higher then the infeed, while it is lower on the Japanese plane. If niether had a blade in place, then the object run along the planer infeed would crash into the outfeed table, while it would be above the outfeed on a J. plane.

This might be an artifact of a hand held tool compared to a table/bench mounted tool.

Setting with 3 sticks? As to concave soles, I'll leave that to you. In my experience, any movement of the blade edge from perfect cutting point away from the sole is not good. Too far down, it gouges and refuses to cut, too far up, there is no cutting taking place.

Pam

Pam

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#59

Re: In a perfect world

thomd [email protected]


>There are different kinds of cutting. Where surface finish is concerned there is probably a perfect cut, and since perfection is the goal that's what you want. Not all planing is finishing and if every other cut was a finishing cut then we wouldn't need finishing planes.

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#60

Re: An Experiment

joel -( tools for working wood)


>I tried the experiment and after 10 strokes got a dead flat edge.

I think however David's observations, mine, and everyones are moot. The reason is that one - the proper technique for flattening something reliably exists and exploring second rate technique is like studying how long it takes to drive to the store if you always take a wrong turn.

But the real point is that when you run shaving after shaving any flat hollow or convexity in the plane will be magnified. I think my plane is flat, David thinks his flat is flat. Are they really? maybe his has a minute concavity and mine a minute conveity? I don't know and I certainly don't have a trivial way of finding out. And of course since I don't flatten surfaces this way i don't care that much one way or another.

I do know however that generations of woodworker milled flat surfaces with planes that were most certainly less than optimium - and they were in most cases pretty junior tradesman. So certainly good technique triumphs technology here.

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#61

Re: In a perfect world

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX


>Yes, but I think we all know when cutting is not happening, it's pretty obvious, it would be really hard to miss. :)

Pam

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#62

Re: bending an LN

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia


>Moses I would suggest that trying to flex the sole by rotating your grips on the knob and tote would be a more accurate test. Your idea on how to set up the test is perfect though. Heck try it both ways. See how much you can flex it with your weight and with your forearms. JR

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#63

Re: In practice

Greg B


>Just finished four glued up panels in quilted maple. Would be terrified to apply the glue if the joints weren't planed to a small hollow. I don't feel as if I can make something dead flat, so opt for the hollowing technique, so I know where I am. Can't imagine the joint turning out seemlessly if it started out with a bump anywhere in the length. (also, this joint seems to benefit from a shrink-swell perspective if it starts out with joints planed to a small hollow...)

I can't seem to do anything very straight in life! From spinning in a tennis serve, to drawing a golf ball, to sailing with a little finger pressure of weather helm, it seems much more comfortable and predictable than trying to go straight down the middle, which could result in being off a little either side of center. Seems like a sure error multiplier to me! Better to put a little English on it and know where I am.

Best to everyone,

Greg

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#64

Bending plane soles

Sgian Dubh


>Dan, it's crossed my mind that I should really start a new thread instead of responding here to your suggestions for plane bending experiments. I'm not in the mood to start a new thread so here's what I've found along with my comments on the exercise and on planing in general.

In the first place I've been fairly sure for about 25 years that a plane sole can be bent in use to advantage. It was a technique demonstrated to me sometime back in the 1970's by an old cabinetmaker I worked with early in my career.

I recall I was impressed by the claim, but didn't do too much with the 'knowledge' until perhaps early in the 1980's, at which point I experimented with the technique whilst creating sprung joints for panel glue-ups by hand.

Anyway, I became convinced that bending plane soles in the length was possible and I've been doing it ever since. Plane soles can also be put slightly in winding but I can't say I've ever used this ability to advantage. I use this plane sole bending technique mostly to create a convex sole. I believe it helps me create the hollow used in sprung joints.

Yesterday I approached a colleague with a large engineer's flat plate, retracted the blade on my bailey No.7 and started playing around to see what I got. We laid the plane down on the plate and tried to slip some 2/1000 shim stock under the sole. We couldn't find a spot where the shim would go under.

Next I grabbed the knob and handle as if I was going to use the plane and waggled the thing about on the plate to get an impression of what it felt like. It was pretty sticky and didn't really want to go anywhere. After that I started a bit of bending. I attempted to bend the sole convex. I could tell I was able to because as I held the plane in my hands it wanted to pivot on a point somewhere under the frog. In other words the front and and the back had been raised off the plate. We were able to slide the 2/1000 shim stock alternately under either end. More accurately, if I held the plane down at the front knob and twisted the handle up we could get the shim stock under the rear of the sole. We could reverse this ability front to back, i.e., hold the back down and jack up the front end.

Next I tried creating a concave sole with wrist twisting on the knob and handle, much as I'd done for creating a convex sole, but in reverse. As soon as I tried this the plane sole wouldn't slide easily on the flat plate. The toe and heel touching the plate made it hard to swivel the plane about side to side. Again we could slip the shim stock under the centre of the sole.

I was unable to find a way of taking suitable photographs in the very limited time I had to do my experiment. It's hard to see how I could set up anything that might be considered scientific and repeatable when all I'm doing is grabbing a plane and bending it as best I can with my hands. I guess I could lock down one end and try bending and measuring, but that's not how I use a plane.

I probably do things with planes that aren't in the books, and mostly I'm not aware of what I'm doing, or why, when I use a plane. I just do it, whatever it is, and it works reliably and efficiently. I guess it's bit like driving a car for a learner driver. Every action of accelerating, changing gear, using the clutch, braking and steering is conscious and considered one. With practice it all becomes seamless and unconscious.

The problem for me is that I've been using planes on a daily basis in my work for over thirty years now and I no longer consciously think about the mechanics of planing, and can't really remember what they are-- I just do it.

So, unscientific as it is, improperly measured, and unrecorded too, I now know for certain that I can bend plane soles in use, and I'm even more convinced than before that I do it to advantage. Slainte.

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#65

Re: Bending plane soles

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI


>I notice that you are not trying to bend a #3 or #4 plane ;)

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#66

Other evidence for ease of bending

bill tindall


>I watched a sole of a No5 being surface ground in a machine shop. I would not imagine that taking less than 0.001" off the bottom with a grinding wheel would generate much bending force, but what ever force this is results in sole deflection unless the sole is braced. To accomplish grinding the sole was laterally clamped with a huge vise and then little jack things were put under each end to provide support. I must presume that the jacks under the ends would have been unnecessary if the sole was stiff.

I would think that wooden planes would be much stiffer.

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#67

Re: Bending plane soles

Sgian Dubh


>Ha, ha. No Moses. Not the short ones. Just long fellers as an aid to preparing an edge for making up wider panels. I've never tried to bend a plane during wide and long panel flattening operations either.

Sorry I couldn't be more scientific about it all with controls and all that sort of thing. I also came to the conclusion that getting someone to take pictures with my digital camera of what I was doing wouldn't reveal much-- just a bit of 2 thou copper shim stock that might, or might not have shown in pictures that it was either butted up to the side of a plane, or had been slipped under the sole. Slainte.

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#68

Re: conceptual problem

thomd [email protected]


>I tried a LV LA jointer on some blocks with a centrally mounted dial indicator. There was some rock in my set-up, but it was possible to find a neutral pressure point and then push down over that point and get a repeatable 5 thou flex. I'd need a better set-up to be sure.

It's not clear to me I could get anything like this flex in actual planing since I am not pushing down over the plane middle, and my hands are out towards the ends.

The conceptual problem I have with this method is that if you are riding on a rise, you could not flex the plane becaue it is not supported out towards the ends. So you keep planing with the hollowing capability of the blade, and eventually you have a point where the matching concave curve in the workpiece has been reached and the plane is supported out towards the ends. A precisely repeatable curvature without any body English. If your plane was flexible at this point you could flex in another cut. But it would only work in the middle of the board because by the ends of the boards you are ridding near or over the mouth and won't have the ability to flex the sole. So in this situation having had to get 90% of the curve by means of carefully employed blade projection, and a hollowing action, do you go for the last required amount (assuming you need more) by a flexing action that may require extreme down pressure and is varialbe over the length of the stroke, or do you just project the blade a fraction more? In practice I would find a working plane setting and just use the plane's hollowing ability.

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#69

Re: conceptual problem

Sgian Dubh


>Thom, your post, for me, is more analytical than I've ever tried to be concerning planing techniques. As I said earlier, half the time I've no real conscious idea what I get up to when I'm using a plane to achieve a specific result.

As you note, setting a plane up in a rig to measure the bend that's achievable is a waste of time. We don't use planes in a rig-up of some sort. We just grab the darned things by the knob and the handle and use them. This is much more dynamic, interactive, and subtle than any controlled rig can emulate. Slainte.

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#70

Re: conceptual problem

thomd [email protected]


>Sounds like we use them the same way, which is why I call the hollowing action scrubing (not talking about scrub plane, though I can imagine where that came form), since that is what it feels like to let it flow, and I don't need any tools or measurements to measure progress vs. what I can feel through the sole of the plane. Like if one is scrubing a floor one doesn't need lab tests to tell the residue is still there or the cloth is clogging or drying out.

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#71

Re: Bending plane soles

Dan Clermont in Burnaby


>Thanks for the info Sgian

I did not know a sole would flex that much.

Curious to know if the same flex could happen with the LN and LV's made out of ductile iron and with a thicker sole.

Once again thanks for the experiment

Dan Clermont

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#73

Re: Bending plane soles

Dan Clermont in Burnaby


>Interesting

I'll have to test this when I get some shop time

Thanks for the info Sgian and Thom

Dan Clermont

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#74

Re: mechanical analysis from 1996

paul womack


>Doug Dawson on OLDTOOLS

BugBear

Re: flat soles and straight edges. An Experiment

#75

Barb Siddiqui

Very interesting

Barb Siddiqui


>magazine article potential here, Richard.

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