I gave in to power. Sorry.

Re: I gave in to power. Sorry.

david.marcus.brown


>I wouldn't say that you gave in at all Joe. All of us resort to scraping or sanding from time to time. I rarely use my random orbit sander though. Most times I wrap a sheet of sanding paper around a foam or cork sanding block. Occasionally I need to touch up some tearout or even out a planed surface. Even a smoother will leave burnished areas that will appear under raking light. A light sanding by hand with some 320 grit will give everything a nice even finish. The more that you use the handtools -- planes, scrapers, etc -- the more success you will have with them.

You don't need to avoid random orbit sanders to consider yourself a handtool user but you will find yourself wanting to avoid those dust devils at all costs.

I've even taken to ripping a lot of my lumber by hand because I enjoy it. When its time to make doors for all of our kitchen cabinets, I assure that I'll do most of the work with machines. I'll rip the boards with the table saw and cut to length with the miter saw. Joinery will be done using a mortising machine or dadoed half laps. But, when it comes time to take everything from rough to finish, I'll smooth the finishes that I can get to with a block plane and then hand sand everything with some 320.

Also, just as when buying any other tools, when you're buying sandpaper, buy the good stuff. I used to buy the cheapest stuff I could find and it drove me nuts. When you creased or bent the paper the grit would fall off or the paper would come apart. Now I buy Norton 3x. Though it costs more and it's not perfect, it lasts a looong time and it's much less aggravating -- I almost said more enjoyable but that wouldn't fit because sanding is never enjoyable.

take care,

Dave

Neanderdabbler

Bruce, a MN Galoot


>is the term that applies to those who straddle the fence. No need for apologies. Been there, still doing that.

Bruce

Re: I gave in to power. Sorry.

John Hoffman


>Yeah, I use a table saw, jointer and planer for the coarse work and hand tools for most of the fine work. Sometimes you need to sand, that doesn't mean you should give up hand tools. I am a believer in Chris Schwarz Coarse Medium and Fine classification and the blending of hand and power tools.

Good job and keep at it.

JH

Before you go, please tell us...

woodburnbob


>...exactly what "smoother" plane you were using and what blade you had in it.

It's paradoxically reassuring to me that you failed. I'd like to think that over the last 6 years my hundreds and hundreds of hours of reading, thinking, spending, experimenting, practicing and so forth made me better at hand planing. I can imagine the old guys with 40 years of accrued skill must get pretty amused at folks who hope to replicate their craftsmanship after a few weeks.

I'm not trying to put you down, just saying that there's a lot more to it than having the facts and following the steps.

Re: Before you go, please tell us...

Joe in a Cleveland suburb


>...exactly what "smoother" plane you were using and what blade you had in it.

Well. Its'a cheapo Stanley (4-1/2 I think) with a cheapo stock, but sharp with a nice edge, iron. I know I couldn't expect the same kind of performance from it as say a nice LN or LV plane with a nice Hock blade or something. I now a quality iron makes a huge(!) difference because my LN 60-1/2R has one. My old old Stanley block plane has a stock junk iron in it and it is of course a night and day difference.

Although my old 4-1/2 is a cheapo, I believe it is well tuned. The sole is flat, the chipbreaker filed and flat on the iron, no burs in the mouth and it was closed pretty tight and so on.

I know it's not the best setup in the world, but live and learn... and wait till I can get something better...

Thanks,

Joe

Re: Before you go, please tell us...

david.marcus.brown


>That 4-1/2 will serve you nicely. The main thing is that it's sharp, the mouth is tight and take very thin shavings.

Your plane might not be as pretty as a LN but a plane is just a holder for a blade.

Your blade might not hold an edge as long as a Hock, but they'll start out just as sharp.

have fun with it.

Re: Before you go, please tell us...

Marc in Luxembourg


>Joe,

For two years now I regularly come to plane walnut, above all german but these days american too. There isn't much a difference as only by color.

I hated this tearout occurring often when smoothing, because otherwise walnut was and is still my favourite wood. It helped my planing to hone a backbevel on my #4 1/2 so the cutting angle came up to 55 degrees (I had a high angle frog, but no matter you can achieve this by a higher back bevel angle). Next step set the chipbreaker very close to the edge, almost 1/64 inch, a very tight mouth opening in the same region. And last but not least set the plane to very thin shavings, 0.0008 inch (2 hundredths of a millimeter, hope I got the conversion right)is fine. You will see tearout getting less if decreasing above all the thickness of the shavings.

As for my ROS I never reached for anymore. It is alot satisfying and so easy only by respecting this setting you will have another handplane.

Regards, Marc

Re: Before you go, please tell us...

woodburnbob


>Thanks, Joe. Six or eight years ago I super-tuned (to the extend I could) a 4 1/2 Bailey that I was very proud of. I took it along to visit a guy who said he bought a Spiers smoother. I'd never seen one in the flesh before. We spent about 30 minutes trading planes back and forth and planing cherry and "evaluating". I thought mine was better; he thought his was.

I've tried to super-tune some Baileys I just couldn't get anywhere with. I almost think of them as hunting dogs...some born to purpose, others to meander.

You've just about got me convinced it's either the frog or the wood. As you say, it doesn't matter anymore. But, if you try the same plane on some real mahogany, cherry, oak, even maple, I'd be curious about the outcome.

Been there, done that

bill tindall


>Keep in mind that using "old" methods is not inherently better, it is different. The quality, or even timeliness of the result can be the most important goal. I have seen a good many high priced antiques with torn grain. I believe it is inherent when hand tools are used by mortals working woods other than the extraodinarily cooperative mahogany. Were it not for sandpaper I would never get anything made with ash. No doubt with sufficient skill and diddling some can plane/scrape anyting but others don't have the skill or will. And from the antiques I have observed made with walnut the ancients weren't too good at overcoming the problems either.

Luke.....Give in to the dark side.

Roy Anderson


>I broke down and used a router last week working with some hard maple. It's tough, sometimes. If we had an apprenticeship with a master for all of our young lives, we'd be miles ahead now. Unfortunately, we have to learn where and how we can.

Good for you, you pragmatist

Dave Thompson


>Personally, I dislike this hand tool vs power tool division... where Norm and Roy happened to draw the lines for the purpose of their shows. My opinion is either extreme is self-limiting and eccentric. Power tools and hand tools compliment each other. I say choose the best one for the task at hand.... and personal enjoyment factor trumps.

Regarding the smoother vs ROS... it would be a pity if your first smoother project resulted in tearout and grooves in that nice wood. As you witnessed, there is some skill involved. Hopefully the cost of education the first time can be kept in check. Great that you tried it. Perhaps things will be different later.

enjoy,

Dave

Re: Before you go, please tell us...

Joe in a Cleveland suburb


>Marc your suggestions sound pretty much the way the plane was set up. Except for the back bevel. I did not do that. I may try that on some scrap as a test.

Is that the ruler trick I've read about?

Thanks.

Thanks for the help and comments!

Joe in a Cleveland suburb

Forgot to add...

Joe in a Cleveland suburb


>I was going to get a Hock iron and sharpen it for use as a smoother. Use it for final smoothing and use the stock iron for other work. But, this past weekend my hardrive failed in one of my home computers. That has sucked up a lot of my play money so to speak not to mention time. I'll have to wait on the Hock. So, when I do get one, I'll be back asking more questions I'm sure.

Oh what the heck, maybe I'll just get one anyway. What should I look for as far as getting a new iron for this plane? Just order the Hock or are there others worth looking for?

This computer is the one my 15 year old daughter uses the most. All of her school work is on it so I had to switch my attention (and play money) to that. We don't want an unhappy 15 year old girl on our hands... ugh. :)

Thanks.

Joe

Re: Luke.....Give in to the dark side.

david.marcus.brown


>Also, most of use are hobbyists so speed sometimes has to win out.

My wife is always saying "are you ever going to finish that (insert project name) "

:-)

Re: Good for you, you pragmatist

david.marcus.brown


>For most of us, I don't think there is a division (at least I hope not).

I think that powered vs handtools is like any other choice in life. There are people that like cats, people that like dogs. In those groups, there are cat people that hate dogs and cat people that like dogs. Same for the dog people. Different sides have their supporters that remain open minded and then there are those on the fringes that are rabid supporters of their "team."

Re: Forgot to add...

david.marcus.brown


>Hock and Lie Nielsen both make good replacement irons. Don't worry about A2 vs hcs, just get one or the other. They're both tons better than what you have now.

I consistently find the best prices at craftsmanstudio.com

Back bevel

Marc in Luxembourg


>Joe,

Sorry for writing something you already disposed of.

The ruler trick will make you a very small backbevel under one degree. This won't help you much. No, better go freehand. I place the blade's edge on the far end of the stone. Between the other ends of the stone and the blade I place three fingertips flat on the stone, grip with the thumb and memorize the position. This will make something between 5 and 10 degrees. (You can make a shim for more consistent and exact proceeding. For this use a protractor and a bevel gauge). I pull back with wrists and elbows locked, pression on the blade's edge with the other hand's fingertips. I repeat til I have a nice small microbevel, four to five strokes should suffice. As you have a cambered edge think of shifting pressure from end to end.

Some guys think a back bevel will dull the blade faster, but I couldn't see this. You will have to push the plane a little bit harder, but that won't be terrific as you go for very fine shavings. In honing the back bevel you will be near the geometry of an infill plane best known for their high smoothing performances.

Regards, Marc

Re: Forgot to add...

Joe in a Cleveland suburb


>Great. Thank you.

Joe

Re: Luke.....Give in to the dark side.

Bruce, a MN Galoot


>My wife is always saying "are you ever going to finish that (insert project name)"

We must've married sisters.

Bruce, who always has a project that needs finishing.

Re: Good for you, you pragmatist

Michael Brady


>I'm not sure it is good to use the term "rabid" in the context of discussing the merits of cats and dogs, LOL.