WoodCentral Forums

Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

saw making questions

Posts

Re: saw making questions

#26

Re: saw making questions

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX


>Adam, I got the feeling from reading Grimshaw that tensioning was needed more then than now. I believe you're right that the spring steel available to us now is made to more exacting standards with modern processes. Your comment on case hardening has me wondering if that were one of the reasons for Disston's reputation for harder steel. I will point out that Grimshaw's information comes principly from a "prolonged inspection" of the Keystone Saw Works, "...where the proprietors and foremen, all practical men, fearing neither publicity nor competition, exerted themselves to answer in detail our every question, enabl(ing) us to present the following outlines of the process".

Re: saw making questions

#27

Re: saw making questions

Vlad


>Hi Andrew,

1. I don't think tensioning or tapering a blade is necessary if you have good quality steel. I 've made several 24" saws using good Swedish spring steel and have never had an issue. The only time I've had an issue is when I tried to taper the blade. It weakened the blade causing it to flex too much. I suspect this is what happened when Disston tapered their saws and had to correct it. Accident, that's all I suspect but I am certainly open to argument. Personally I think blade tapering is not necessary. TLN and SMT agree.

2.To correct a subtle wave in the blade, hammering it out is extreme. I would only do this if the blade were kinked but then why would you buy a kinked saw when in "Old tool heck where I live...." Sorry Todd. I just fit the moment :o)Simply bend the saw lightly the other way.

3.I've never tried punching holes. Not sure how that would be done either. I think there is a special tool out there that the oldtimers used but not sure of the name. I clamp the blade to my DP, drill on low speed, use a cobalt bit and use lots of cutting fluid. However doing this on a 0.035 spring steel with Rc52 is a lot of work and expect to use 2 bits per hole. I would go with 0.032 steel. 3 thou makes a big difference. Don't overheat the holes or you'll be in a world of trouble.

4.The stuff you buy in the US is Rc48. It should be fine for sawing. I wouldn't bother trying to bring it to Rc50/52. You might go through a lot of material just testing this method and spring steel isn't cheap.

5.Buy your spring steel from a local provider (Metal Supermarket if you have them in the US) with at least a 24" shear. Have them cut it at an angle similar to a standard blade. Keep the scraps. After that use a file and or belt sander if you want a skewed back for instance. I have also used a dremel with a disc. Also try an angle grinder. If they don't have a shear go to a sheet metal shop and have them cut it. It's about a $1 per cut.

Good luck

Vlad

Re: saw making questions

#28

Re: saw making questions

Todd Hughes


>....Well Adam I am glad now that since you have made 4 saws you can put us straight on that old piker Disston with all his "hogwash" and inform us that he really " had no clue to what he was doing"

I made a few bottle rockets a while back.... think I better call NASA now and give them some advise....Todd

Re: saw making questions

#29

Re: saw making questions

Adam Cherubini,NJ


>So what you're saying is that I came on a little strong with that post? Lacked subtlety? Nuance?

I get where you're coming from.

Adam

Re: saw making questions

#30

Re: saw making questions

Andrew Lunn


>Hi Todd, thanks for the description of the anvil and hammer. I find all of this stuff very interesting. It's definitely interesting to see what everyone here thinks.

I actually did initially contemplate cannibalizing an old saw, but a couple of things prevented me. First, doing that seemed more appropriate for making a back saw than a panel saw, as whatever saw you make will obviously have to be smaller than whatever saw you start with. Making a panel saw out of a saw just slightly larger than the saw you want to make somehow didn't feel so much like saw making to me, as just recutting teeth and making a new handle for an old saw. Plus, I think I'd feel almost kind of bad cutting up an old saw that someone might actually fix up and use--if it's nice enough to make a panel saw out of, then it's probably nice enough to salvage.

Andrew

Re: saw making questions

#31

Re: Grimshaw On Saws

Andrew Lunn


>Wow. It is too weird that you mention that book, Patrick. I was just last night sitting at work looking at books I want to get, and was wishing that I could see that Grimshaw book at my local library before I purchased it, to see if it was worth buying. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. It sounds like one worth reading.

Andrew

Re: saw making questions

#32

Re: saw making questions

Andrew Lunn


>Man, it's nice to see folks get excited about stuff like this. I think I'll make my first saw without attempting to tension it, just because if it works well without it, then don't fix it I guess. I'd still be curious to see what would happen, though. So...

Thanks for your description of straightening your blades. I noticed the metal that came for this saw isn't exactly straight. Some of my old handsaws, by contrast, are arrow straight. Why is it you don't want to know what effect a slight bow would create in cutting? Because you think it doesn't really matter and is not worth knowing? Or is there another reason? Just curious.

Andrew

Re: saw making questions

#33

Re: saw making questions

Andrew Lunn


>Vlad, thanks for your thoughts. What sorts of saws have you made? Do you have any pictures of them you could post? As far as punching the holes goes, I saw on the Norse Woodsmith site that he uses a hand punch, but the actual name of it eludes me right now. You could read about it yourself--it's in the messages and questions that people send to him; somebody had problems drilling their holes, so he recommends a punch. The address is www.norsewoodsmith.com

Anyway, take care,

Andrew

Re: saw making questions

#34

Black Arts

Warren in Lancaster, PA


>I have been involved in black arts all my life. These are arts in which experience, tradition and intuition play a role in forming our technique and a scientific explanation for what is going on is not always apparent.

Around 1995 I noticed that harpsichords had a richer sound than twenty years earlier and I asked some makers why that should be. The first two I asked thought I was a nut case. Then I asked a fellow who had made harpsichords since 1970. He said that they found out in the 1970's that sixteenth century wire makers had annealed the wire part way through the manufacturing process and when somebody tried copying this technique it gave a richer sound. Now everyone uses this kind of wire. Whether in the 16th century or the 21st century it would be hard for a maker to explain what is going on here, but people can hear the difference.

I think with study and experience and care we can make finer saws. Like the sawmakers who were "tensioning" saws years ago, we might not have a good explanation for techniques that experience tells us makes better saws.

Re: saw making questions

#35

Re: and while you're there...

ThomD


>Sorry, I don't have any cad on that. I was just saying if there was enough itnerest, it really pays to get some parts cut. I play with some guys on a chopper forum, and they are always getting parts cut. A single part is too expensive, but if one has several to put in at the same time they will get a batch done. All I was saying was that if we needed CAD for that kind of thing I could run it up, and since Adam has already been down this road, we could use his or anyone else's material for a pattern.

By the way, I am stuck at the farm and was making a reamer for a project today, the kind of reamer that uses a saw blade for the cutter. I just scored it and snaped it off. The saw steel was springie but snapped didn't bend.

Re: saw making questions

#36

Re: RANT ON What's the difference between...

William Duffield, on the Cohansey


>...cutting up a saw and cutting up a log?

If we applied your sentimentality to woodworking, we'd all be living in log cabins or worse, busting our arses in stick chairs, eating off of plywood tabletops with 2x4 legs and aprons, and storing our possesions on split rails or particleboard planks stacked up on concrete blocks.

Don't be any more afraid to cut up a saw than to cut up a fallen shade tree.

It's just material. You don't have a museum curator watching over your shoulder. Just use a little discretion. Newer saws incorporate better steel, which Disston somehow thought would make up for the economic elimination of split nuts, skilled craftsmen, nibs, elegant etches, efficient and comfortable handle shapes, taper ground steel, apple and beech handles, recessed medallions, etc. Just understand what you are doing, and what it is that you are doing it to.

Newer saws are likely to have much better steel, ugly or even cruelly misshapen handles, less elegant or even inelegant shapes, or a hangdog hang. They are also less likely to have been improved by an artistic bucolic scene painted on them, which you will have to remove. Again, use discretion--The barn in the painting just might be the ultimately collectible Dead Horse Forge.

Another caveat: some time after Satanley bought Disston, induction hardening of individual teeth, after cutting, sharpening and setting, was employed. This required a different steel formula, and it makes new teeth cut better for longer, but makes maintenance of the teeth by the sawyer problematical.

NO TNAR

Re: saw making questions

#37

Re: saw making questions

mikew


>When this thread started, I thought it would take a direction I wanted to avoid like the plague. I think I was right. I'm also as dumb as a post because I feel the need to wade in.

I pretty much feel like Adam does, and for the same reasons. Hand tensioning isn't something necessary using modern-day steels: with one caveat...

Tensioning is useful for straightening a blade to be sure. In the manufacturing process, metal behaves remarkably like wood with internal stresses: it will bow or twist during taper grinding. Given enough time, the convex side can be ground to bring the bow out.

I think this is why backed saws do not receive so called tensioning, at least I have not seen a record of this in any literature I have seen. But taper grinding does release stresses in the metal which need to be accounted for in some manner.

This has been my experience.

A whole other can o' worms is whether taper grinding of saws destined for cabinet work is even necessary. I don't think so, and certainly not to the extent Disston's heaviest ground saws were. In my test in dry woods, it only takes 2 thou more set to run true on heavy plate such as the Kenyon's we are making. That's not much. On thinner plate, such as .035" .030" or less, destined for 20" and shorter panel saws it only takes 1 thou more per side.

Take care, Mike

bowing out, lurking once more and all that.

Re: saw making questions

#38

Re: Black Arts

ThomD


>Dead on.

I think the words are often the only problem, maybe the hammering isn't "tensioning" anything just making the saw better. One thing that is often talked about in blacksmithing/bladesmithing circles is that forging packs the edge and increases the performance of the resulting blade. Well apparently this is impossible, but that doesn't mean there isn't something happening even if the "density" of the edge hasn't been altered. Science is all about running experiements and drawing careful conclusions. Real world experience should not be so easily discounted, even if words fail when it comes to explanations.

Re: saw making questions

#39

Re: saw making questions

ThomD


>With the steel bought from industrial houses, does it have any apparent coil memory. I would say most of the new saws I handle though not the Japanese saws, when sighted tend to one side. I haven't handled the stock people are using in these projects.

Re: saw making questions

#40

Re: saw making questions

paul womack


>Bugbear, do you know what their anvils and hammers looked like?

Oh yeah. The hammers were super cool. They had 2 wide peins (like some smithing hammers).

But the peins are at 45 degrees to the handle and 90 degrees to each other.

This allows the spreading and tensioning of the blade to be directed as the operator chooses according to experience and black arts.

Ya' can't mistake 'em if you see 'em.

Unless Adam says theyre a figment of your imagination, of course.

BugBear

Re: saw making questions

#41

Re: saw making questions

paul womack


>But the peins are at 45 degrees to the handle and 90 degrees to each other.

Doh; sorry, peins are parallel - but rotating the hammer means that IN USE the peins perform 90 degrees to each other.

http://www.canadianhomeworkshop.com/contest/mystery_tool02.shtml

http://www.hattonbrown.com/vserver/hb/display.cfm?MagazineKey=3&IssueKey=454&SectionKey=538&ArticleKey=840

BugBear

Re: saw making questions

#42

Re: saw making questions

Vlad


>I don't think I'm allowed to post my site but if you do a search you'll find me and pics of my saws.

Have fun making them. It's a lot of fun. But once you get past a couple of hundred it's boring.

Vlad

PS. Thanks for the link. I'll look into it.

Re: saw making questions

#43

Re: and while you're there...

Andrew Lunn


>Oh ok, I see. That would be a lot of fun, I think. It would be a fun way to do something with some folks here--I really don't know anyone here--and to get a cool saw out of it.

You know, I read somewhere (don't recall where) a guy saying that he scored and snapped out his saw blade blanks, as opposed to cutting them. I think he alluded to something written about it by Roy Underhill. I see that Roy has a chapter on saw making in one of his books, but I don't have the book and am 2nd on the reserve list for it at the library. Doh!

Andrew

Re: saw making questions

#44

Re: saw making questions *LINK*

mikew


>I am...linky below

Hi Vlad, yep, you are allowed if in response to a direct request.

Take care, Mike


Sephar Toolworks

Re: saw making questions

#45

Re: RANT ON What's the difference between...

Andrew Lunn


>Sorry to get your dander up William. I just came here looking for some advice on saw making. Your point is taken; those newer lesser saws aren't the ones I find when out looking for stuff. I come across ones that are either totally trashed or that are old and worth restoring. Those are the saws I think of as something of a non-renewable resource. Once they're gone, they're gone. You might say there's flippin' bazillions of them lying around, and that's true, but it doesn't mean they won't be gone someday. I have no apologies for my opinions, but your point is taken.

Andrew

Re: saw making questions

#46

Re: Black Arts

Andrew Lunn


>Great post, Warren. Thanks for the perspective. What sorts of black arts have you been involved in? I find it rather mind boggling to think about the things people figured out how to do before they "should have" been able to figure out what to do.

Andrew

Re: saw making questions

#47

Re: Black Arts

Andrew Lunn


>Well said, Thom.

Re: saw making questions

#48

Re: saw making questions

Andrew Lunn


>Well, I'm glad you joined in and gave your thoughts Mike. It's valuable for sure to hear what a professional sawmaker like yourself thinks. At the outset of this I hadn't considered that the differences between modern steels and older steels might make such a process obsolete. Nor had I considered that it might simply be a means of straightening saws after they've been tapered. More than anything here I'm just really interested in saw making and some of the obscurer aspects of it that you really don't see much about. I'm also really interested in planemaking and carving, and I've been rather amazed at how subtle differences in the tools make for subtle but meaningful differences in performance. So I find myself thinking about things like that a lot, and saw-tensioning has been one such topic that's been sort of eating at me. The chance to hear what a saw maker with as much experience as yourelf thinks is truly valuable.

Andrew

Re: saw making questions

#49

Re: saw making questions

Andrew Lunn


>Wow, great looking stuff, Vlad! I followed the link Mike gave. Those decorative brass backs are truly stunning. I'm curious, what led you into the idea of a three-piece construction with your blades? Sounds like it must work real well for you. Do you leave the top edge of the blade exposed, sandwiched between two pieces of brass, or do you mill the brass to hide the blade entirely?

Andrew (p.s. nice looking planes, too. Really innovative work, all the way around!)

Re: saw making questions

#50

Re: saw making questions

Vlad


>Thanks Mike and Andrew.

I did 3 piece construction because I didn't have a mill at the time and I really wanted to make some saws. I refined the process to a point where it worked very well. Although it was time consuming. The drilling and peening takes a lot of time and effort but I think is a superior method to others - no movement...ever. Having said that, I will do slitting the backs, when my brother teaches me how to operate a mill properly, just because once the mill is set up you can run a few hundred in a day. That'll give me much more time to try some other decorative elements in the brass.

The blade is completely throught the brass. ie 3 pieces. It works well and is a method anyone at home can use with very simple tools.

I hope I've answered your questions. Good luck.

Vlad

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.