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Thoughts on DT Lay Out

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Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#1

Thoughts on DT Lay Out

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont.


>Hi,

I was working on a project last night and completing the half blind DT's on the drawer. A few thoughts came to mind, how many tails do you use when cutting in a drawer?

I really don't read or follow convention when it comes to this, I do what I think looks right to me. I like an odd number of tails, I like to see one in the centre of the drawer width. For this drawer ( 4 1/2" tall) I went with three tails, could have gone 5, but thought it might look too busy. These are also the tightest pins I have ever cut. It's dry fit ( I know I know, fit them once....right!).

Anyway, just wondering when you lay out your tails, what design judgments do you make in a situation like this.

Take care,

Jim


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Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#2

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC


>I like that drawer Jim, nice. Handle pattern also equally look nice.

Chico...

PS:pretty much same mantality w/ dt's. I don't bother with measurements etc. They just have to look "right".

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#3

They're nice looking dovetails Jim.

Ian Smith (Sydney Australia)

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#4

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.


>Nice job, Jim!

As a purely personal opinion, with pins that thin I would increase the number of tails. Four tails would look better IMHO, but I understand what you're saying about having an odd number of tails.

Maybe you could make a test joint with five tails, just to see how it looks? I think that the more tails you use, the less "having an odd number of tails" to be of an issue...

My $0.02,

DC

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#5

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX


>Since the pins are much more prominent than the tails, I prefer an odd number of pins; so I'd go for three pins, not counting the half pins, on this piece.

Still, a very nice job, Jim.

Pam

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#6

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont.


>Hi Pam,

You make a great point! I see that now, perhaps the relationship of pin size also to tail size should be a design consideration...??

Maybe in this case becasue the visual of the pins is strong four tails might be a nice look, the odd numbered pin in the centre?

Take care.

Jim

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#7

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont.


>Hi Denis,

I like to vizualize details some times I draw then out to scale on paper and place it on the work, this may be a good way to see it in the futur as you describe.. great input!

Take care,

Jim

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#8

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX


>Yes, the relative sizes should be taken into account, but that happens automatically when you decide on some number of pins per joint.

And yes, I'd put the odd pin in the center.

Pam

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#9

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont.


>Thanks Pam,

I may draw this out next time I cut Dt's. I have another G&G side server I am working on with several drawers, I will see how it looks on that one them.

Take care,

Jim

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#10

I agree with Pam on this but...

V Parisian


>Now the layout becomes a little more critical as the eye can spot the off center attempt at centering that odd pin.

By the way, those are nice dovetails. I'm looking at the other details also. That's a nice looking piece.

Regards from Houston

Victor

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#11

Somewhere I read

Ron in Kokomo


>I think I read a discussion of this very topic by Klausz, or Krenov.. somewhere.. I'll google and see if I can find it

Ron

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#12

Dovetails or....Shave-Tails??

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs


>Jim, when I look at the dovetails they appear somewhat disproportionate to me. What is the ration of the 'half-pins' to the pins? They appear to be 2 1/2 or 3 to 1. I don't know if there are different schools of thought about this, I'm guessing there are, and so my comments are not rooted in any particular tradition.

It seems to me that some even number of pins (proportionate to the half-pins) centrally located will balance the overall affect when the 'half-pins' are larger than the pins.

You may actually come up with a unique layout that future generations of woodworkers will refer to as "Shave-Tails" rather that dovetails! ;>) As usual, your work is inspiring and very pleasant to view.

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#13

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

William Duffield, on the Cohansey


>In general, I agree with your choices. For a drawer that tall (in relation to the thickness of the drawer front), three pins works well, but I'll offer a critique on a couple of fine points.

I think your London pattern pins provide insufficient strength to insure the long-term survivability of the drawer. Even if we disregard structural issues and consider only esthetics, I think the width of the pins would look better if they were the same width as the half pins at the top and bottom.

Very small pins also look incongruous on a piece, such as this one, in the Mission style. An important point of the Mission philosophy is the celebration of strong, honest joinery. No one would fault your choice if you made the pins and tails the same width. Personally, I like smaller pins that that, because I wouldn't want someone to think my hand work had been done with a routah (as if my hand work would ever get to that level of precision). Therefore, I try to make the gap between the tails just a bit smaller than the minimal neck of a dovetail routah bit.

You should also strive to saw the pins at the same angle as the half pins. Yours look from the photo as if the pins have a smaller angle. That practice should also make it easier to improve the precision and efficiency of your sawing.

I would only want to go to five tails if the height of the drawer front, and the materials I made if from, and the climatic conditions where the piece will live, would need the extra support to prevent cupping. Otherwise, the extra cutting and chopping wastes time and increases the chances of a mistake damaging the joint during the chopping and bashing together.

An even number of tails usually looks less elegant than an even number. An exception might be when you are making a set of drawers of graduated height. In that case, the abrupt change in size between the widest set of three tails and the adjacent narrowest set of five tails might look worse (when all the joints were shown off together) than an intermediate drawer or two with four tails. That would be a more difficult choice for me to make than some of the other points I discussed.

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#14

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont.


>Thanks William,

I have read this over a few times and gone back and forth with my image and see what you are speaking about. I Think if I proportioned my pin size to tails more in keeping with your comments I would have gone with four smaller tails maybe.

I think once I glue up the drawer and plane the sides smooth the pins will look as they are, for some reason the look a bit irregular here in the image, might be shadows.

Take care,

Jim

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#15

Re: Dovetails or....Shave-Tails??

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont.


>Thank's Frank,

I use dividers to lay out my pins via Rob Cosman's method- I find it simple and quick. I have one set of dividers set for the half pins at 1/4", so when I went down in full pin size i might have ommitted the thought of pin to half pin balance...you make a good point.

Take care,

Jim

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#16

Re: Somewhere I read

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont.


>Thanks Ron,

That would be great if you can find that...I did a search on dove tail design and layout parameters for design, I found nothing..

Take care,

Jim

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#17

I struck out

Ron in Kokomo


>I can't find the source of the discussion.

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#18

Re: I struck out

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont.


>Thanks for trying Ron!

Take care,

Jim

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#19

Re: Thoughts on DT Layout

William Duffield, on the Cohansey


>I guess it depends on how you count: Two pins plus two half pins brings the total to three, the same as the tails. (New Math :^)

I prefer the weight of each half pin to be less than the weight of each full pin. In any case, their weight should be no more than the weight of a full pin. The weight of Jim's half pins looks about right to me. Any thinner, and there would be a good chance that the top or bottom edge of the drawer front could split off. This is another reason, beyond what I stated in my previous comments, that I think Jim's full pins are insufficient. I might suggest a compromise: Make the narrowest dimension of the full pins the same as (but never less than) the narrowest dimension of the half pins.

I prefer the total weight of the pins to be less than the total weight of the tails, even though the Mission esthetic (as noted below) suggests they be equal. The pins are usually in much darker wood, and therefor make an immediate and lasting impression on the viewer. Since a center pin stands out with an even number of tails, it visually divides the drawer side in two. I find this bisection visually uncomfortable, and therefore tend to avoid it, just as I try to avoid an even number of drawers.

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#20

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

William Duffield, on the Cohansey


>I'm not complaining about minor irregularities. That would be "the pot calling the kettle black." I'm guessing about some possible problems, but my observations are surely clouded by low resolution image, camera induced distortions, and incomplete finish, etc. Also, I'm not trying to state any "immutable rules", just some other ways to look at the issues. These observations are not even intended to give a consistent point of view--They're just "things to consider."

I agree, "Neatness counts!" Glue, finish planing, and even veneer shims if necessary to close gaps, will do a lot to improve the visual impact of any dovetail. Even without the subtleties we are discussing, the basic hand cut dovetail esthetically beats anything cut with a router. Any dovetail, hand cut, chopped, sawn with a backsaw, bandsaw, tablesaw, jigsaw, London pattern, or Leigh, Incra or OmniJig, structurally trumps any other joinery method (except maybe cast phenolic resin reinforced with graphite fibers, or welded stainless steel :^J) for drawers and carcases.

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#21

Excellent Commnents So Far

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont.


>Hi William,

I have enjoyed the course of the comments from every one in this post, it's great to discuss design and have a range of ideas and supporting characteristics to consider.

I have not taken any ill from any of the inputs, this has been fun!

With the wealth of knowledge on this site I am pleased to see the comments I have read so far, there are no wrong answers, just thoughts to share.

take care,

Jim

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#22

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

Deirdre Saoirse Moen


>Okay my thoughts:

1) I prefer an even number of pins, which in this case would be four.

2) I prefer the end half-pins to have their widest part either 2/3 or equal to the full pins.

3) I don't prefer super-narrow pins. I like them narrow enough to show they're hand-made, but just enough so that's apparent.

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#23

centering...

James Watriss


>That odd pin does make life difficult.

The problem is that you have to center it not just across the drawer, but you also have to have adjacent pins well laid out, so that it looks like it's centered between them, too...

Nice work.

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#24

Great Comments

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont.


>Thank you every one,

I am pleased with the disscussion generated here on the topic, some good "food" for thought next time I lay out another project. I appreciate the constructive comments and the exchange of viewpoints here...

Take care,

Jim

Re: Thoughts on DT Lay Out

#25

Re: centering...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX


>Generally speaking, people are very good at bisecting, so my freehand, tails first approach would be:

1. Cut the half pins

2. Bisect the board and saw a tiny line to mark the center pin (waste in this case)

3. Bisect between that line and the inside line of one half pin. Saw another tiny line.

4. Repeat for the opposite half pin.

At that point, Bob's your uncle.

Pam

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