Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all

Re: Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all

joel -( tools for working wood)


>first let's ask the obvious: What's the plane worth on the open market?

While I am largely against bastardizing old tools and poorly repairing stuff under the guise of restoration repectfully using any antique is fine in my book with some caviats. In this case for example what's it worth to a plane collector? if the answer is more that what a brand spanking new C+W plane of similar length would cost I would sell it in a flash and get the C+W - simply because this way a bit of history is preserved and selfishly a new beech plane by C+W will work a lot better without fussing that a 200 year old birch plane. If the plane cost me very little, and isn't rare then using it is fine - just take care of it don't "restore" it and it will provide years of planing pleasure and return a handy dollar to your estate. Get a replacement blade if you are concerned and store the old blade where it won't rust.

When I was in tool buying mode many years ago it was largely impossible to buy new stuff of anywhere near the quality I could buy used. THat's not true anymore. by the same token I have no personal interest in repair. my set of hollows and round for example is an almost brand new set of Marples C. 1900 that should work as well as a brand new set of C+W except when I bought my set C+W wasn't around. If all goes well , when I am done with the set hoepfully not for many decades, they will be in approximately the same shape as when got them but some of the planes might have a touch more wear. If C+W were around when I biught that set I doubt very highly if I would have troubled myself to track down the Marples set. You see I have no interest in finding a tools for 3 bucks, and spending my time getting rid of the rust.

Now most of my tool collection is for reference so it's important to me that if I buy an old tool it's in the original condion and I am going to keep it that way. Only 4 or so Towell panel planes for example are known. Each built differently. None would work as well as my really nice shape, much less expensive post-war Norris panel plane. It would be rally dumb to buy the towell plane to use, and if I found it for 10 bucks in a garage sale it still would not make sense to clean it up, repair it, do anything with it because it's worth more as a collectible so the right thing to do is to sell it and get a panel plane in much much better shape for a lot less money.

For tools that are common - do what you like - tools after all are meant to be used and an old common chisel with a broken handle is better off with a cleaning and a new handle.

Anyway I hope I answered your question.

Re: Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all

Ernie Miller


>As todd says it's you plane do with it as you please. But I don't mess with things that may be of historical value. if if is an american plane I can look up the maker and give you an idea when it was made. All I have are comon planes OGONZES? we find them by the wagon load most with blown out sides or missing the blade and wedge. so making them work at all is a mirical.

Re: Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all

Kevin Adams


>Joel--

Thanks very much for your response. I agree with what you said. Like many folks, my early entre into handtools was to pick up stuff on ebay, only to be disappointed when it wasn't in the shape I expected or required so much work getting it to work, that I didn't have time to work wood. That's when I turned to modern versions of tools. But over time, I found that an old wooden jack is an absolute pleasure to use...if it's from a reputable dealer and works as advertised. Yes, I would love to have a whole arsenal of C&W planes, but if I can find a NOS wooden jack for say, $25 or 30, then that's what I got. Likewise, this new jointer costs significantly less than a new C&W jointer. Who knows if it works yet (I haven't tried it out), but I'm hoping that it'll do the job. If not, then maybe I just became a collector of a 200 year old plane and my order goes in for a C&W!

So should the blade be straight or cambered?

Thanks again.

Kevin

Re: Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all

Ernie Miller


>I beleave a Jointer blade is straight with the corners eased over a little. If it has a large camber you will never get to flat just a bunch of ridges.

Re: Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all

Dean J in MN


>So should the blade be straight or cambered?

My 2d,

A plane this long (and wide) would be my goto tool to match plane, so I'd set it up with a straight edge. Then again, where else do you use a jointer plane anyway? :) (Remember in my world long planes used for surface work are try planes and have a cambered edge. I live in a crazy world.) Now, there is nothing wrong with a nice long try plane either, but it sounds like you may have a longish try plane already?

-Dean

Re: Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all

Wiley Horne


>Kevin,

Investing/collecting is one thing and pleasure from vintage hand tools is another. So you have to make a decision where you're coming from. Example: I have acquired four old Jo. Fuller ogees and astragals, a Wetherell Chatham 1/2" dado, and a 7/8" Lindenberger thumbnail--all in great shape, and all usable. And I use them, and derive great pleasure from it. I love finding out about how good the old steel is (it's great by the way), and how true the planes are. And you can mull over John Lindenberger being at Lexington or Bunker Hill, and then going home and making that plane. I use these planes--they're collectible but not super valuable. I mean, look at your plane, and if it's marked 'Chelor', don't sharpen the blade, don't do nothing. But if it's the kind of plane that comes up every once in a while, and if it's a plane that a knowledgeable vendor will let go of, then use it. The vendor has already decided he'll come across more of those.

But it is a choice and a decision. I know the minute I sharpen the iron, some dollar value is gone, and for that matter the minute I take possession of the plane some of the value is gone, because the vendor was part of the provenance of the plane--in other words, he can get more for the plane than I can.

Post pictures--we need to see this thing.

Wiley

Re: Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all

Todd Hughes


>I have not been able to find any maker with the stamp "SM Wood" and would have to think it is an owners stamp and not the maker.With something like this all you can say is that it is an "18th century type "of plane....could have been made later. Even still after saying this a plane like this that could be that early and is in this nice of condition is a rare plane I would say. Bench planes saw much more use then say molding planes and as such early examples are today much more uncommon then molding planes.

I don't know why you would want to use somthing like this when for $10 or $20 you could pick up a nice and very common 1800s jointer made by say Sandusky or chapin that will serve you very well.A plane like your sounds like I think belongs in a collection and not out getting used up......Todd

Re: Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all

Kevin Adams


>Dean--

What kind of pieces do you do and how do you have your planes set up (what is your world)? I guess I was thinking to keep the camber and use it to get the edge straight and then maybe finish it off with the trying plane (very light passes) or do I have that all wrong? Will using the 22" trying plane mess up the straight edge that I just did with the long jointer?

Thanks.

Kevin

Re: Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all

Kevin Adams


>Wiley--

I've been trying to post a photo, but I guess no luck. I've never done one before and I think it said the image was too large, I'm not sure. If anyone has any ideas, please let me know.

Most of my planes are run-of-the-mill Marples and didn't cost much at all. The dados are Scottish and I have to admit they are very cool. I also have a nice bead and a thumbnail that is from the 18th century, but unused. I haven't used that one yet, but probably will one day. I like the profile a lot.

These things do have a way of multiplying, that's for sure!

Kevin

Re: Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all 

Kevin Adams

Re: Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all

Kevin Adams


>OK, I think I'm getting the hang of posting photos thanks to Todd.

Here are two photos of the plane so you can see the size and condition. Great color (a few stains, but mostly a nice patina) and the wedge is just about perfect. Below my bench you can see a few of his "relatives." There's a 14" razee jack with a fairly big camber (used to surface the bottom of chair seats for a "rustic" look), a 15" all-purpose jack, an 18" fore plane, and the 22" try plane. Off to the right you can just see my fancy tool "box", which is a canvas riggers bag from Wooden boat in Maine. This works perfect for me as it allows me to carry my most used chair tools around with me either in the shop or if I set up my shaving horse outside.

Kevin

Re: Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all

Kevin Adams


>Sorry but the description from this post really goes with the first photo above. I'm getting the hang of this!

Here's the plane line-up

Kevin Adams


>This should give you a perspective of the different sizes. I used to think the 22" trying plane was large!

That's the wood for a new chairmaker's workbench on the floor. All RS, air dried beech, 2" and 3" thick, that I got for free when a friend was moving and didn't have room for it. It's on my to do list, but is probably later in the summer. I need to save some money for a Tucker vice first!

Thanks for looking and for any comments.

Kevin

Dean's World

Adam Cherubini


>Dean's world, Dean's world, Party on! Excelllent!

I guess I was thinking to keep the camber and use it to get the edge straight and then maybe finish it off with the trying plane (very light passes) or do I have that all wrong?

Yeah backwards. It the stock is in the rough, work the edge with your fore/jack plane first (lots o camber). Then attack with your 22' try plane. Its cambered iron is useful for squaring the edge. If the edge is not a mating surface, why go on? You can stop there. If you're match planing, that's when you need the really long jones. You also need the wide jones for that operation. If you had a 34" narrow plane and a 22" wide plane that'd be a real predicament! As it is, sounds like your 34" guy will work fine as a jointer, so make its iron square.

Adam

Re: Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all

Todd Hughes


>Little hard to tell from the photos but sure doesn't look like an 18th century type plane to me.I don't know why the person that sold it to you would think it was. The tote is shaped wrong and plane body doesn't look like it has the wide champhers on the edges which is one of the charistics of a 1700s plane...Are you sure it is birch too? Does it have a single iron or one with a chip breaker?.....From here looks like a pretty common plane.....Todd

Surprised

Adam Cherubini


>I'm kinda surprised by Todd's response here. Usually he says stuff like (this is my best, over the internet Todd inpersonation):

Maybe I'm just a slowhead, but I don't go tellin others what to do with there property.

I guess I'm of a different mind. Maybe the right thing to do is trade it with Todd for a comparable newer plane. Todd can then sell it to a collector whose wife will stick it back on ebay in 5 years when that guy passes (I think Joel is the youngest tool collector I've ever met, and he's like, what, 55, 58?)

Next, people talk about how these things should be in a museum. What museum are folks thinking of? The Smithsonian? I have a better collection of user tools than Winterthur has. Carpenters Hall in Philly used to have a nice collection of tools. If anybody should have such things its Carpenter's Hall. But the tools were stolen some years ago (probably by the same old tool thief that got Schwarz's infill in Philly). And now they've got a whole boat load of nothing on display.

I think if guys like you stopped buying stuff like this, the bottom would drop out of the market. Then the only people buying them would be decorators looking for something textural to put on the wall next to a bicycle wheel at TGI Friday's bar and grill. I don't see a lot of museum curators bottom feeding on ebay. I'm guessing you didn't outbid any.

So I'm not sure if its the right thing to do to pass on these planes, because they are so "valuable". We create the value. We're like the ASPCA of old tools. We give stray tools climate controlled and loving homes. My vote is to use it, but not abuse it and do what you've done. If you don't know and you are suspicious, ask questions. If its a critical piece of history, someone on the internet will tell you.

That was fun talking like Todd for a minute their.

Adam

P.S. I think I inhaled too much pine dust tonight! I didn't have on my dust collection system, secondary particle filter, 1 micron dust mask, eye and hearing protection and my tyvek space suit. It was just shorts and a tee shirt and a wooden plane. SEE? YOU SHOULD ALWAYS WEAR YOUR PROTECTIVE GEAR! THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU!

Re: Surprised

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native now in Jax Fl.


>Personally, I'd use it. I looks to be an extremely nice plane and should provide many generations of fine service.

We do create our own delimmmas don't we. Too rare to use? It's a tool, and was made to be used. So, it spent the entire 100-200 years of it's life tucked away and forgotten somewhere and is dead mint, so what, it's just a tool at the end of the day isn't it.

The argument of preserving the past arises as well. Well, is this tool the very last one in the World of it's kind/type? Well, if it is, that may be another issue, but chances are it's not, so are we not preserving the past by using the tool?

Monetary value. Well, every item has a monetary value, just some more than others. Would a diamond be more valuable than a red rubber ball? Depends on who see's it I guess. Give a child the choice of the two and I'll guarentee s/he'll take the rubber ball 999 times out of a thousand. So, it depends on who you ask "the value of a particular item.

We Americans tend to look at 200 years as VERY OLD, and our friends in Europe look at it as "new junk", so which is it?

I'd dare say in less than 100 years NONE of us are gonna care. Coarse, that dosen't give us license to wontfully destroy historic pieces as I do believe in Preservation for future Generations benefit.

Bottom Line I think is that there is no right or wrong answer. Only the owner of the item at this particular time can truely judge, and either way s/he'll add something to the items history.

I myself have some items stashed away that probably will never be used by me. why? I dunno, but it's the decision that I've made for these particular items at this particular time.

We humans are such funny critters are we not?

Todd O.

Re: Surprised - really surprised

Joel


>"I think Joel is the youngest tool collector I've ever met, and he's like, what, 55, 58?"

Do I really look that old? - check out my picture in the August Pop Woodworking (pg 59). I know I don't look as young as Konrad the summer intern or Chris the happiest guy in the office, but I have all my teeth and I don't think I radiate that that cool maturity of Rob Lee.

I'm only 47, just past the age when the models and actresses who frequent my building start looking at me as someone who is definitely too old to rock and roll but is still to young to die.

I'm not that old..

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond, CA


>I just look that way on TV!

Yea that's the ticket...

There you go again Adam...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond, CA


>Some of us want to play too.

Remember bring enough for all of us to play!

Re: Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all

Dave Thompson


>Are you thinking about opening a museum, or decorating your place with old planes?

I suspect it'll get it's most care and appreciation by tuning it up and using it well. My old planes that I use are tuned and kept dusted, sharpened, oiled and waxed regularly. The wall decorations (mostly woodies with cracked side wedge holders) just collect dust and only get remembered when I need some more shelf space for other old dud woodies. The cracked side wedge holder doesn't matter to a museum visitor...only to an active woodworker. I'd say enjoy it until you can't any more.

Dave

Thanks Everyone.

Kevin Adams


>I appreciate everyone's comments. Pretty much what I expected actually. As I stated from the outset, I wasn't interested if the plane was really 200 years old or 20. I figured it was somewhere between the two and the dealer (who you all know very well) obviously wouldn't have sold it for what he did if it had major historical significance. In fact, when I had contacted him about my search several months ago, he mentioned this plane and I took a pass because a) I could have bought a C&W jointer for just a bit more and b) I really didn't want to use a 200-year old plane. When I contacted him again recently, he mentioned he still had this plane and he had significantly lowered the price. I told him I was going to use it and I would have to think that he would have been honest with me right there that it was really a collector piece.

So, I'm going to wax it a bit, hone the iron, and see how it works. If the bottom needs a little attention in order to make it work, I'll do that, too. I guess the fact that the iron is cambered tells me that it was used by someone along the way. Actually, that's probably my only disappointment about the plane as it's going to take a bit of work to sharpen the iron by hand to get it straight again. The camber is done very well, but I understand now that it should be straight for match planing long boards.

And Adam, you only try to diguise your true age by wearing those funny period costumes...

Thanks again for all the advice.

Kevin

Re: Using Antique Tools--Adam, Joel, all

Dean J in MN


>

I guess I was thinking to keep the camber and use it to get the edge straight and then maybe finish it off with the trying plane (very light passes) or do I have that all wrong? Will using the 22" trying plane mess up the straight edge that I just did with the long jointer?

My world? Imagine being magically swept away to...Delaware. Hi. I'm in Delaware. (Sorry, Wayne's World quote to keep up with Adam's 'Dean's World post.)

Adam said it, reverse your logic and you've got it.

-Dean

I dunno Kevin

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native now in Jax Fl.


>I think if I was you I'd be inclined to sharpen the camber edge as it is and take it for a spin before I straightend it. Who knows, you might be pleasantly surprised with the results and discover why this was done by the Ancient Craftsman who did it. Just a thought.

T.O.