Survey - Dovetails

Pins First...

Brad in Ottawa

>It's always faster that way! ;)

Brad

Re: But, everything else takes so long.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Thom et al, I'm not sure if I explicitly stated this, but I think it should have been fairly clear: I do not and have never done the divider/compass method of layout. IMO, simply from watching he-who-will-go-nameless do it on the drawer dvd, it's too slow. Anytime I get bored watching a dvd, it's a too-slow process. I also don't use the ruler trick, simply watched it on Kingshott's dovetail video, it seemed so clever, fast, and accurate. The reason I trust these assessments is that I'm very good at assessing processes and layout, something about some sort of spatial aptitude.

I cut dovetails by eye alone for the first board (take your pick, pins or tails), pretty much bifurcating the "waste," and then mark the other side of the joint from the first board. Personally I think too many spend way too much time talking about doing dovetails, buying special dovetail saws, making it into a mental and physical hurdle that I haven't found to be there. I got lucky for my first dovetails I had a very good instructor (this was 25 years ago, hand woodworking class) who showed us how to lay them out precisely. My dovetails came out perfectly, perfect fit, the class was amazed; but all I did was follow the instructors directions precisely. However, the process was a bit slow for real work, so after the class ended I devised my current method. It simply works.

Pam

Re: But, everything else takes so long.

Thom D

>Whoa, you have never tried it! If I threw out every process that bored me I wouldn't have retained one whit of 70% of what they taught me at school. Come to think of it...

Anyway, the thread actually is about how fast you personally and the rest of us cut dovetails, but my quibbles never were. I have full confidence you have it worked out just fine. The point in this backwater is only whether deviders work quickly to lay out accurate spacing. I don't even think that's open to question, there are dozens maybe hundreds of processes that depend on them, right up to stuff like people plotinng stuff in the heat of battle on charts etc... Deviders are a proven technique.

Woodworking videos are skewed for a broad audience of very different abilities, and presented mostly by non-professionals the results are pretty uneven as to pace and depth, and everything else. There is the odd one I have not been able to finish due to the TV equivalent of brain freeze.

Re: But, everything else takes so long.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>[edited]I never said anything bad about using dividers, in general they're quite handy. I did say that the process of using dividers to lay out dovetails looked slow and fiddly, which it does.

Now the process of measure, mark, and adjust is OK. For example, Kingshott shows just such a method for finding center with a mortising gauge. In this case, his method is faster and more precise than any other way I've tried; but it only requires one cycle of measure, mark, and adjust, then you've got it. It's the multiple cycles that seem slow and tedious in the dividers used for marking dovetails.

Pam

Nope.... T A I L S F I R S T !

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC

>

Re: But, everything else takes so long.

paul womack

>Anytime I get bored watching a dvd, it's a too-slow process.

That's just bizarre.

Teaching videos go slow so you can follow the process.

If I wanted to teach somebody to play some of my keyboard jazz/blues riffs, it would be pointless playing them full speed.

They're instructional videos, not demonstration videos.

BugBear

Re: London Style Dovetails

paul womack

>I would have though London Style dovetails would not be strong...

Of course, it all depends on that emotional word "strong".

Ian Kirby points out that the load on a drawer corner joint is not very high, and that almost any dovetail joint is way over specified, leaving us happy woodworkers with an aesthetic "design envelope".

Even London dovetails are "strong enough", although they're getting a bit borderline for my peace of mind.

BugBear

Re: Survey - Dovetails

Jamey Amrine

>As a response to the original question, one timesaver I have found to work for me on drawers is to go tails first (dear god, no!) and cut the tails for both drawer sides at the same time. In other words, clamp the boards together and saw the rear tails, then flip the boards over and cut the front tails. Mark the pins from these and cut those afterward. I leave the waste in and mark the pins on the endgrain with the saw with a couple of pull strokes, using the kerf as a guide.

I'm no pro, and I have only done a few drawers myself, but that helped tremendously. It also helps keep your tail cuts orthogonal to the face of the board since you now have a wider reference across the end. It makes the spacing match between the opposite sides of your boards too.

I would think that if you were doing a pair of drawers, you could stack 4 sides and do the same thing. The only limit would be the capacity of your dovetail saw. Of course, no one says you can't get out a tenon saw or something larger....

Obviously, I didn't devise this. I got the idea from Roy's books.

Re: But, everything else takes so long.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>No, it's really not bizarre, Paul. I love woodworking instructional videos, learn an incredible amount from them, love watching other people work. Given that, if an instructional video bores me, it's either because the process seems wrong and/or inefficient to me or, not that this happens all that often, I already know the material up one side and down the other.

But whether this divider process bores me is not the decisive critique, we're getting into ad hominem argument here. The decisive critique, in my opinion, is that the process itself looks slow and inefficient and, with all the adjustments required, may even be error prone; although I'd have to actually try it to make any sort of personal final judgement on that.

Pam

Re: But, everything else takes so long.

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Hi Pam,

Why would you buy a Cosman Dovetail video if you already have a proven method that has worked for the past 25 years?

Seeing as how this thread is about quick efficient methods on dovetailing why don't you offer Denis your method? If I missed it in a previous thread I apologize.

Cheers

Dan Clermont

Apology accepted, Dan

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Why buy a dovetail video? Curious I suppose. Problem with auto didacts is that there's a lot of self doubt. Perhaps there are better ways of doing a job? How do the reputed masters do this?

That said, I've only bought two specifically dovetail making videos: 1) Kingshott's. Why? I love him, his voice, his calm way. As it turned out, I learned the ruler trick, which I have if and when I need it; and 2) Klausz's, which confirmed my own approach, except he does pins first.

As to the third, it wasn't a dovetail video, it was a drawer making video that reputed to teach "piston fitting." Now I don't even like piston fit drawers, closing one drawer makes one or more other drawers yell; but I thought there might be a couple or three tricks new to me. And there were. To wit, the shallow rebate to add some precision to holding the cross boards for pin marking, very handy, should speed up the marking process, to say nothing of the satisfaction of finding another use for the 140; and the reshaped chisel for cleaning out the waste on half lapped tails. No, I didn't actually regrind a chisel. Instead I ordered a custom 3/8" bachi nomi from Michio Tasai, which just arrived Friday. (Need I say how beautiful, balanced, and perfect this honey is? Nah, that would be too close to a gloat for comfort.)

So, for about $90 I got a complete course in how dovetails are done today, think I gained an appreciation for some other woodworkers, and saved thousands that would have been required for attending classes; although I would have refinanced my house to get to the UK to meet Kingshott and take a class/tutorial with him.

I told you all I really like videos. :)

Pam

Re: Apology accepted, Dan

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Hi Apam,

What is your tired and true method which worked for youthe first time 25 years ago?

We would all like to learn a new technique or trick or two

Cheers

Dan Clermont

Re: chisel?

paul womack

>and the reshaped chisel for cleaning out the waste on half lapped tails

Is this a skew chisel (e.g. Crown, Lee Valley) ?

BugBear

Re: chisel? *LINK*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX


>I don't know, how about skewed on both sides? This one is more gently flared than bachi nomi are usually; but they're also wider than 3/8". In fact, I got this custom chisel because the smallest available was 1/2". Also, this is a relatively primitive style.

Pam




1/2" bachi nomi at Japan Woodworker

Chico, have you thought about...

Brad in Ottawa


>That if you were to put out a Pins First video everyone would call it the Chico technique/trick??? Never mind that lots of misguided woodworkers have been cutting dovetails pins first for quite awhile!

Brad

Joking aside....

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC


>Hi Brad,

...Tails first has legit merits. Not just preference.

I don't think there's anything left to be patented (officially/unofficially) in hand cut dt's.

Cutting pins first has also merits for half-blind or lapped dt's.

Chico...

Re: Apology accepted, Dan

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX


>You know, Dan, I'd spend the time to answer this question, assuming I could remember every little step from 25 years ago, except that the way you asked it is insulting. My tried and true method is to freehand saw the tails, mark the pins, cut them out, chopping to the base lines all the way.

I strongly recommend that anyone who wants to do their first dovetail get the Kingshott video, the method displayed is very close to my instructor's, except that he shows you how to make half-lap dovetails, assuming that if you can do that you can easily do through dovetails.

Pam

Re: Apology accepted, Dan

Dan Clermont


>Thanks for sharing that with us Pam.

SOunds pretty straight forward. I thought it may involve more tips and tricks but I guess not.

Glad you shared it with us

Cheers

Dan Clermont

Re: chisel?

Wiley Horne


>Pam, that's an incredibly beautiful chisel. Thanks for sharing.

Wiley

Re: chisel?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX


>I'll say, Wiley, Tasai-san really outdid himself. Also, based on your recommendation a year or so ago, when I found out there were a few Kinshiro gauges available I ordered a large one. It's going to take quite a while to get accustomed to using such perfect tools.

Pam

Re: chisel?

paul womack


>??? The standard one seems to have a more useful degree of taper for dovetails, although if it's too wide, it's too wide.

Interestingly, old drawings of European chisels show full length tapers too.

BugBear

Re: chisel?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX


>Yes, I would have thought so, too; but I told Tasai why I wanted this, specifically for half lap dovetails. So either the reason got lost in translation or it will work fine. Will let you know. I suspect that #1 fishtail carving gouges would work fine, too.

I haven't seen old European chisel drawings, very interesting indeed. Wonder why they were the norm everywhere and are not now.

Pam

Re: chisel?

Wiley Horne


>Pam,

Very astute and resourceful of you to track down the Kinshiro gauge--they must have only had a few in Japan. In my opinion, the large one was the one to get, too. You must have gotten the last one!

Wiley .... mighty envious of that chisel, it's a killer

Re: chisel?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX


>Iida-san is connected, no question. I needed the long blades for the workshop project, posts and beams are big. The gauge as a whole isn't too terribly large, 4.5" long by 3.5" high, the blades are 6" long.

I'm sure we could get Tasai-san to make some more bachi nomi. :)

Pam

Re: chisel?

Dan Clermont


>WHere can I order one of those and how long is the wait? How much are the custom chisels?

Dan CLermont