Survey - Dovetails

Re: Survey - Dovetails

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>My best guess is that you're spending an inordinate amount of time measuring. On the through dovetails, I cut the tails by eye, mark pins from the tails, cut, fit. On half blinds, I cut the pins, mark the tails, saw the initial cuts, hammer a scraper blade to cut the rest of the tails, clean out with a chisel. About an hour per drawer, less if I did it all the time and/or could process several at a time.

Now, if you're following the [Rob Cosman] version religiously, there are some time wasters in there. The first is the incessant compassing for layout, when all you need is a simple ruler to make the main positions (see Kingshott, or I'll explain it more in another message). The second is marking each and every dovetail prior to sawing. The third is the nibble approach. The fourth may actually be a time saver, but I haven't actually tried it yet. This is the planing of a small rebate to define the tails, looks like it will make holding the pins for marking much easier, more precise, therefore faster.

Pam

Re: Survey - Dovetails

Ted Owen, Pittsburgh

>If you use the scraper blade on the drawer front pins, which is also the method I use, make sure it's quite dulled. Otherwise the scraper can split the drawer front.

You might also save a bit of time by not marking out tails at all, other than depth. Just cut where it looks right. You'll quickly get a feel for cutting at attractive and uniform angles.

You did spend longer, Denis, than I think you will after doing some more. Fourteen drawers, 56 joints, is enough to get pretty good at it--also perhaps enough to make you sick of doing dovetails for a while.

Best, Ted

Re: Survey - Dovetails

Wiley Horne

>Denis,

I never did 'em on the clock.

But the biggest time saver for me is ganging the drawer sides when you saw the tails--this is assuming you go tails-first. I do them two at a time, but there are others that will gang 4 or 6 drawer sides. The advantage is that you only mark the tails on the side you're facing, and then extend your tail marks across the end grain of all the drawer sides you have ganged (I suggest start with two). And you have the scribe lines. But you don't mark the tails pattern on any face other than the one face you're looking at.

Ganging the sides actually makes it easier to saw true, because you've got that longer reference across the end grain of the ganged boards. I like to make the first saw cut straight across the end grain, just enough to get the kerf started, with the saw held vertical; then angle the saw and start sawing down two lines at once--the tail sidewall on the face and the matching line across the end grain.

If you gang just two drawer sides at a time, a second time saving is to fret saw (or cope saw) the waste, while the boards are still clamped for the sawing.

I do that rebate thing usually, but it doesn't save any time--it takes time. I do it because I get more precise results. If I dovetailed drawers all the time, I probably wouldn't bother. But as it is, it helps me a lot.

One other thing--the sawn faces of the joint should be good right off the saw. If you're needing to adjust them afterward with the chisel, then all that detailing time can be saved, simply by practice.

Wiley

Re: Survey - Dovetails

R.J.Whelan (Eastern Sierra, CA)

>Denis ... I don't think fast is all that desirable - precise is.

That being said; if you feel 3 hours is too long for one drawer here is my routine - keep in mind that while I greatly enjoy cabinet and furniture making, it is how I make my living so I do have to bow to production efficiency at times.

>Cut and plane all parts at once

>Mark out all tails on one of each pair of drawer sides

>Stack the matching drawer side with the one marked in step 2

>Saw all tails in two parts at once - don't chop out waste yet

>Repeat 2, 3 & 4 for each drawer

>Chop out waste on all drawer sides at once

>Mark out pins on all drawer fronts and backs

>Make all saw cuts

>Chop out waste on all fronts and back.

>Fine tune one drawer at a time.

The theory here is that by performing a single operation you get into a rhythm and build "muscle memory" and (hopefully) get better and faster with each repetition.

Once again ---- if you don't have to pay the bills with your work it doesn't really matter if a drawer takes you 30 minutes or 3 hours; if it looks good when you're done you will have accomplished the most important part of the exercise.

Good luck with your technique ... rj

Re: Survey - Dovetails

Jim in Burlington On

>All by hand using the Rob Cosman method's it takes me about 3 hours a drawer. Chopping out the waste is quite a chore. It's one of the few jobs my trim router can speed up.

Re: Survey - Dovetails

charles

>A drawer the size you mentioned would take me about 40 minutes to cut and glue. I usually lay out a series of drawers all at once, so I would add ten minutes if laying out each drawer and then cutting.

You need a saw, a few chisels and a mallet. NO COPING SAW. Chopping waste is fast. Undercut the sockets - don't try waste time paring a flat socket. Aagain, undercut slightly. Use the Tage Frid 'trick' for half-lap dovetails - hammer an old scraper or section of jigsaw blade in the corner to finish the cut. This saves a TON of cleanup time. It's easy to split a workpiece so try this on scrap to get used to the technique.

Watch Frid's dovetailing video if you want to see a drawer dovetailed with speed and accuracy.

need more information

bill tindall

>Did everything take what seemed to be a long time or was one or two operations time consuming? When I have not made a drawer in a while initially the marking takes too long. But then after I gain confidence that I am not screwing up something it goes quicker/smoother.

I use the stack 'em chop 'em approach for chiseling out all 4 sides at once and I think it is a time saver. I got a comfy stool. I clamp the 4 sawed sides down, settle in and wack away. I agree with the batch approach described above for the reasons described above. I don't find that sawing out the waste saves me any time over wacking it out with chisel. I like the F. Klause chiseling technique.

Re: Survey - Dovetails

Adam Cherubini

>I agree. Cosman has a lot of tricks that are time wasters. I think he is trying to help folks who lack good skills. That's not a rebuke of Rob or an insult to his devotees. Just the opposite. But there needs to be a voice that says- "yeah that's fine for now, but learn to do this by eye, learn to saw straight, or you'll be slow."

If you want to build multiple case pieces, there's just way too much of this joint not to try to get good at it.

Adam

That's fast!

Adam Cherubini

>

Re: Survey - Dovetails

Adam Cherubini

>Last time I did this (it was a while ago sadly- cut a lot of thru DT's recently) it took me about 1-1/2 hours. And this wasn't one drawer, hadn't done it in a while....this was like 8 drawers and I wanted to finish them all in one day and it took me a day and a half!. My problem was the half pin waste. I use the heel of my saw to saw most of it, but for whatever reason it just takes me a while to worry out all of that material. There's probaly some minor amount of stock prep in there. I'd like to think if I did it now I could do it as fast as Charlie, but I thought that then too! I wanted to complete each drawer in less than an hour and I failed!

I'd just like to add the following:

1) thanks for the question- I've enjoyed the answers

2) I think its a great question and I feel its helped me in the past to get a sanity check for such things. I've tried to use 18th source materials for the times when I can.

3) What are the sides made of? Pine really mashes into hardwoods nicely. Last week I made a bunch of thru DT's in 1/2" maple. That's a little more time consuming. If you are working really hard woods, its going to take longer.

4) In the famous woodworker sideshows, the famous woodworkers always use pine and they always sand the joint before handing it over. The wood dust fills the same gaps we mortals get. So don't hold yourself to a standard no one meets.

5) There's probably a few things you are doing that you don't need to be doing. I know you'll be able to cut your time in half.

Thanks again for the interesting question

Adam

Re: Survey - Dovetails

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Yes, I didn't intend to criticize [Rob Cosman's] method except to the time involved. One exception is the compass layout, convoluted, fiddly, nibbling, slow, especially when contrasted to Kingshott's ruler trick.

Pam

Re: Survey - Dovetails

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>HI Denis

Providing I have already squared the stock and have already setup my dovetail layout I would venture to guess about one hour to do all 4 corners.

If you are concerned about time you might want to go the power route. Personally, I prefer handcut and am willing to the invest the time as I take allot of pride in hand cut dovetails

For me the most time is spent doing the dovetail layout and squaring of stock.

I use the Cosman method and try hard to cut to the line but sometimes leave room to pare

Good Luck

Dan Clermont

What I do

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Since my questions elicited a number of questions in return, I'll describe my current process, along with the source that inspired each step:

- Plane boards' ends clean and square (Cosman)

- Use the marking gauge (Tite-Mark) to set the various thicknesses to mark. Using the adjustment wheel, tighten the gauge until it holds in place by itself on the measured board (which leaves it a tad thicker than the actual thickness of the board), and transfer to the mating piece (Rosewood Studio instructors)

- Gang up the sides together (Becksvoort)

- Use the compass trick to lay out the tails (Cosman)

- Use a dovetail saddle square to pencil layout lines (number of sources)

- Saw the tails

- Cut off the half pin waste, leaving it fat for subsequent trimming (Rosewood)

- Use a coping saw to remove most of the waste (Cosman)

- Set a "chopping block" for trimming the waste. It is a square board that's registered (using a chisel) to the baseline and clamped in place (Rosewood)

- Chop waste between the tails, going gradually until there's only a sliver left, then register the chisel against the chopping block to trim to the baseline (Rosewood). No undercutting (Rosewood, Cosman)

- Trim the tails to correct for any mistakes

- Trim the half-pin waste down to the baseline

- Put the pin board in the vise, and using the block again, register the tail board on the pin board, and mark (Rosewood). I've tried a knife, a chisel, now I'm back to a sharp pencil (Klausz).

- For some reason the cut tails often don't match the angle that they were laid out, so I just transfer a line down on the face of the pin board

- Saw to the line (or at least try to), on the waste side

- For through dovetails, use the coping saw to remove most of the waste. For half-blinds, use the drill press with a 1/4" Forstner bit (using the depth stop) to remove as much waste as possible

- Chisel the remaining waste, using the block

- Before test-fitting, take off with a kinfe the inside corners of the tails (the side that won't show), to help in driving the tails in the pin board (Rosewood, Cosman).

The wood I use is white birch, leftovers from the moulding stock I had milled, along with a couple pieces of maple. The birch is harder than the poplar we practised with at Rosewood, but softer than maple. The softer the wood the harder it is to do a clean job IMHO.

Now I might do too much trimming, as the fit is often somewhat loose. I don't need to "tap it in"...

I guess I'll get better with time, it's just a bit frustrating right now. I know that I'm using many "crutches" for the moment, but I haven't yet developed the "muscle memory" to do away with these yet...

I'd love to be able to do dovetails quickly like Klausz, or so precise that I don't need a test fit (Cosman). Practice, practice, that's what I'll do... I guess I'll go watch Cosman and Klausz's videos tonight...

DC

Re: Survey - Dovetails

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>Takes me about an hour to do what you describe. I wouldn't say I'm fast but I try not to waste time either.

I use standard dovetailing methods: mark accurately, gang the sides to saw the tails, cope out the waste, and pare to my marks. Un-gang (is that a real word?) the sides to mark pins from the tails.

Pins for through tails are gang cut and coped but separately pared (to allow for the inevitable differences (some would say errors) that have crept in earlier.

Half blind pins are, of course, cut separately and not coped. I don't use the scraper blade trick as I'm too scared of splitting boards. I just chop most of the waste with a chisel and use a fishtail chisel to get right into the corners.

Biggest time saver for me is gang-cutting and having a well set up task light. The work goes pretty quick if you can see what you're doing and so have the confidence to cut or chop next to the line and pare back into the line with just one or two swipes with the chisel.

regards

Angus Barclay

Re: Survey - Dovetails

Alan Bierbaum, near Denver, CO

>"So, the survey questions are: how much time does it take you to dovetail a drawer that's four inches high (three tails)? What method do you use (describe if possible)? Any time savers in your "arsenal"? "

I normally run about an hour if the stock is already prepped. I cut tails first (saw both sides at the same time - clamped together). I mark tails on one side only - space by eye or rough ruler measurement; don't fiddle with exact measurements on drawer back. I do measure better for the front - still I don't nit pick the measurement. I cut with the saw and chop all waste. I do all of the tail cutting, then chopping before transferring marks to the front and back (for pins). Pins are sawn then all waste chopped out. I rarely pare - they normally fit "good enough".

Alan

Re: Survey - Dovetails

Steve Wargo

>Denis,

I think that the answer actually depends. If you are making a drawer that is only to be functional and just look "good", then it would take about 40 minutes. However... If the drawer is to be "perfect", as in perfect 90's, dead flat, symetrical layout, and joinery that requires no touch ups, then I would guess that the drawer would take about 90 minutes. When I teach dovetails, I start by doing a quick drawer. No questions, or interuptions from the students. I do 2 through tails on the front and back. Usually it takes about 20 minutes in maple or sycamore. Dovetails only get faster with repetition. On most drawers (unless it's to be a show piece) I see no need for a perfect joint, especially when they are as easy to touch up and make look perfect after assembly. Now carcsas joinery is a different issue all together.

Re: What I do

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Hi Denis

Practice is the key.

If you ever have 30 minutes of shop time dovetail two boards together. Once your done try to figure out what made the joint better and what made it worse (for example, pencil vs marking knife)

I also find doing some pracitce cuts with my saw before I cut the actual dovetails helps allot (work out the bad cuts first)

cheers

Dan Clermont

That's one good point

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>I need more light...

DC

Re: Survey - Dovetails

Thom D

>I do think one has to compare apples and apples. Asuming high quality and fit, there are still arty dovetails, as found in studio furniture, particularly back in the exposed joinery fad period. often in wood like ebony an maple. Getting every single atom in place for examnination by microscope is a different process than knocking together some nice joints by eye, or in pine. And this goes for some pretty nice antiques I have examined where the actually difficulty of the dovetails (I'm not complaining) was pretty minimal.

It's one thing to say that you don't have to measure everything exhaustively and that one can free up the work for more judgement and less lay-out, and going to the opposite extreme of knocking precise work. Fast precision is a skill and that applies to lay-out as well as fits. I didn't spend too much time watching Cossman the one time I saw him, but he seemed pretty fast to me. Videos aren't the total reality.

I think a drawer would take me an hour. I'm not really sure, it's been a while. Klaus said 20 minutes in pine with a false front, and he was talking the whole billable segment from getting the stock out, design, joining and assembly. In 20 minutes I'm still looking for the "lost tool"

If we are comparing deviders to laying a ruler at a diagonal and carrying each point forward, I'm not sure there is a speed differnece of any significance. I have an uncle who had a lot to do with Admiralty charts. He got me started on deviders, a very important tool I had generally ignored (though I don't use it for dovetails). If it's somthing else... Never mind.

Can I have a little rant? I'm getting increasingly worried about all this attributing stuff to people just because they did a video. Kingshott's ruler trick!! Come on, if he didn't know that one he would have been the only one who didn't.

Re: Survey - Dovetails

Thom D

>Have you tried the Tage Frid Technique (hey in this case he might be the only guy to promote it). I use a thin blade putty knife and after sawing the part you can easily cut of the pins, you just hammer the knife in there and it squares the socket all the way down.so they basically chisel out normally though just form one side. Cramp to avoid a blow-out

One thing that really speeds up DTs is thin stock. I'm working on a chisel that will be very low angle. Not a new idea, the idea being you can take all the waste out of 3/4" with one pass from each side, as long as the material isn't too hard. On a lot of nice antique furniture the sides of all those small drawers are often about 3/16", easy pickings. It helps if one can design for the actual structural needs of the piece.

Re: What I do

Thom D

>The stuff you are attributing to Rosewood there is Krenov 101. He is melting togething, who knows, pear and bubinga. For nomal mortals that's a time waster. If you use a knife to cut your set-back (marking knife or gage) then all you need to do is come in from of the knife line and make a very shallow chopcut to liberate a little triangle, then get in there and either enlarge, or go direct to your choping. The point is going directly to the chopping almost always sets back the chisel and bruises the wood. But if you get a little more support behind the chisel before going into the power phase, then the results should be need. In other words you are doing with the workpiece what the Krenov bethod does with a separate block, it's the same concept. If you have the Klaus tape you can see him going after the little triangles with some light taps, it's so fluid I didn't get the point of what he was doing at first.

There is some subtle chisel handling stuff that reduces the chisel diving tendancies without getting more set back, but it depends on chisel set up. The endgrain is so strong, the main point is to get it working for you.

As far as undercutting is concerend I don't really care one way are another, but there is nearly zero structural value to the middle 2/3rd of the endgrain so don't nock yourself out preserving it or leaving it.

You also sound like you have developed a hybrid of Becksvoort's method of tails first and everyone else who tends to be pin firsters. Becksvoort says the reason he started the tail first method is because he was rebeling against someone who told him it couldn't be done. Now that he's stuck with it he has some other reasons, of which the ability to gang the sides is like a 20 second time savings, it better be worth it. As long as you prefer it.

Like you seem to be spending a lot of effort on the half pin waste, when you are marking from it anyway so it ought ot be a free cut.

I don't test fit, it bangs them up too much. It's not like they are going to split or anything , but it just seems to damage them a little.

Eventually one day it comes together, then it isn't half as interesting any more, so enjoy the goof time, hobby wise anyway.

Gang cut the tails

Andrew F in Australia

>Hi Dennis,

You can put the sides together and gang-cut the entire set of tails before you make the drawer.

I used to work on about 30 minutes per lap dovetail, but I haven't cut one in 2 years - I'd be guessing that the first few would be out at more like an hour each.

But, gang-cutting the tails is a big time saver. The exception here is if you make a mistake, and then each drawer side has the same mistake to fix, so take a little time and make sure that you're cutting it right.

Best regards,

Andrew

Re: Survey - Dovetails - Ruler trick?

Paul Erickson

>Hi Pam,

Would really appreciate a description of the ruler trick. Haven't been able to find any details on the web with a search.

Thanks in advance.

cheers, Paul

Re: That's one good point *LINK*

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>Its not just a case of more light; its a case of getting the light shinning on your work the right way.

An adjustable task light is a vital part of the way I work. If you position it slightly off to one side of your work when sawing, a knifed line creates its own minute shadow and shows up really well.

When I take the work out of the vice and put it on the bench, I reposition the light so it still highlights the layout marks. Only then am I ready to chop or pare. The 5-10 seconds it takes to adjust the light probably saves several minutes overall.

I use the adjustable task light whenever I'm marking and fitting joints - even on a sunny day. Much as I enjoy hand tools, I kill a few hundred watts of electrons just so I can see.

regards

Angus Barclay


One of these will speed up your work