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The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

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Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#51

Without flaming anyone I agree... read on

Victor P

>I also enjoy Derek's posts and look foreward to them. I firmly believe that Derek means the best, and I suspect if the plane were only loaned not given the review would be very similar.

I for one am intelligent enough to understand there are some/many biases in just about any review or article ever written. I'm sure none of you believe every word printed in Fine Woodworking rag/magazine. Regardless, we still read and enjoy it.

It seems to me certain individuals just want to tear down a good thing here. By good thing, I mean this community.

This reminds me of one of those family squabbles that after the harsh words are spoken/written they can never be taken back and the pain lasts a very long time. But we somehow manage to carry on.

Keep up the good work Derek some if not most of us still still enjoy your efforts.

Regards from Houston

Victor

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#52

Are these reviews a good thing???

Dave Thompson

>Consider the negatives:

  • LN is getting slandered.

  • Ellis is getting short changed by his advertisers.

  • Marcou is getting reamed.... He's just paid out big bucks for a tiny company only to get a fancy review that people are reading as his plane costs ten times too much.

  • Tensions are high again...

  • Derek's experience, ethics, and integrity are called into question again.

  • People feel like clandestine commercialization is creeping into woodcentral like a fungus



and the positives:
  • Derek's got another cool looking plane.

  • We got to look at some tool porn.

  • LV is made to look like they are an order of magnitude too cheap.



What happened to Lyn? As I recall, his fine reviews were informative

and got nothing but praise and appreciation. I don't recall them ever sparking tension. His subject were similar.... LV/LN planes, high end loopy plane, fancy sharpening systems, etc. What's up with that? I seem to recall a good number of the items he reviewed came out of his own pocket, though not sure about all of them.

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#53

Re: Are these reviews a good thing???

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Don't know, Dave, seems like there are 4 or 5 guys who attack Derek on this issue every time he posts a new review. We all know that you're spoiling a good thing for the rest of us. It's your reputations that will suffer, already have. Have you noticed that Alice/Alf hasn't posted a review here in a long, long time; so we're already reaping the fruits of your gang's effort. Hmmm, beginning to sound like some sort of conspiracy. [edited]

Pam

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#54

Questioning morality.

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>Do enough forum members want me to continue posting reviews? Some evidently do not, but are they the vocal minority? If they are in the minority, it would be a travesty to let them dominate the proceedings on this forum.

I will point out that one needs to wear armour plate when posting reviews to this forum. Rarely do my postings on other forums elicit such incredibly vicious attacks. In my opinion, there are a just a few louts (for what else better defines their boorish manners) who will attack because they just enjoy the excitement and camaraderie of this activity.

There are a couple of issues that constantly form the focus of the arguments raised. The first is that these reviews are paid for by an advertiser, that they are �infomercials�. The other is about objectivity.

Reviews should be divided into two categories � those that are self-initiated and those that are initiated by others.

I, and others, have initiated and written reports/article/review of tools that are already owned. Does this prevent bias? Of course not. Bias has nothing to do with ownership � it has to do with the manner of reporting.

I have written reports on planes where the manufacturer initiated the process. This goes for some of the Veritas planes and for the Marcou plane. Lastly, I have written reports on planes on the request of a third party, such as a web magazine. Does the standard arrangement (this goes for all manufacturers) of a �free� tool from the manufacturer-driven review encourage bias? Probably not. Why? Because that tainted publicity is not in their own interests. I should point out that I have never requested a plane from anyone for review.

In my opinion, people like Philip Marcou and Rob Lee are incredibly brave. Philip especially. I am particularly distressed by the proceedings of this review on this forum because this brave man has treated so shabbily, and most are not aware of it. What am I talking about? To a small extent the cry of �infomercial� is correct � but it is not as simple as the Detractors would have others accept. Philip�s business is building planes. He believes in his product and is prepared to place it under scrutiny. He is hoping that he will come up smelling of roses, but he knew beforehand that I going to do my best to write objectively and will try my best to avoid bias. A bad review will affect him negatively, and he and I know this going in, and he is prepared to take the risk. The same may be said for Veritas. There have been a number of occasions when I have pointed out a shortcoming in a Lee Valley/Veritas tool, and Rob has taken it in and acted on it. Veritas has built up a great reputation and can ride the storms now, but small organizations like Philip Marcou do not. Witness what recently happened to Shepherd. So to place himself in my hands is a brave act for Philip. At the same time, my name is worth more to me than his future is to me. As much as I care that he does well, I will not lie to achieve that. I may be flowery in the presentation but school is out when it comes to the evaluation.

In developing a research/review strategy I make as sure as I can that the information is presented in a fair way. First of all there is the fairness of the scientific method � that is, looking for evidence that is meaningful. Secondly, there is fairness to Philip, since he is expecting to get something from the review that will aid him commercially. As I said before, why otherwise risk one�s reputation? Of course this is an aspect of �infomercial� but this must not detract from the reliability of the information, per se. I owe it to him and all others to present his plane in a way that respects his efforts in building it. This makes for good reading.

So onto the strategy of maintaining objectivity. Let�s see � I include other planes to determine how well it does work, and I define the minimum standard for an acceptable performance. For Control, I use planes that others know and respect (here the LN and LV), and attempt to make sure that these are working optimally. The LN does not work well, but I believe that this is a rogue situation, so I seek an alternate solution that is satisfactory for scientific needs (just not satisfactory for the emotions of some). I invite two other participants to provide their opinions. I accept their opinions and print what they have written (only editing out excessive wordage). I document everything in a manner that we all can relate to. �. Mmmm I can see that this is the makings of a biased document.

Did I mention the time and effort that goes into each review � that I spend considerable time researching matters beforehand and even interviewing planemakers. For this review I had daily emails back-and-forth with Philip over a period of about 2 months, and I separately spoke with Karl Holtey and Ian Dalziel, amongst others. I accumulated a vaste number of pictures, fussed over which to include� the process was endless. The number of hours that went into the writing was a lot longer than Philip took building it! In all, this was over a month in writing alone.

After all this we have a few on the forum who will pick up on minor issues and make them the focus of everything. I paid them the respect of answering some of their questions, in spite of the derogatory and aggressive tone of their writings (apparently objective criticism only goes in one direction!). Of course, this is foolishness on my part since there is nothing in the known universe that will convince them otherwise.

Now the burning question � do I continue to post my reviews to WC? Why should I? This is the only forum where I get attached like this. It is not pleasant and, while I�m a big boy and can take care of myself, I don�t feel that I should be subjected to such rude, crass behaviour by a few. In addition, the organizations that are involved, be they contributing directly or indirectly, are affected negatively, and this is not right. So what am I to do?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#55

Re: Are these reviews a good thing???

Alice Frampton, UK

>Hi Pam,

You've hit a rich vein of putting-your-finger-on-it posting here :~)

FWIW, I've never posted a review on here. I and others may have linked to one or two in the past as part of other discussions, but they're written for primarily for my fellow Brits on the UK forum. Something tells me I won't be changing that policy any time soon...

Cheers, Alf

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#56

Re: Questioning morality.

Frank House

>Derek, please keep reviews coming.

Much of the criticism seems personal to me rather than saying anything sensible about your work. Some of the critics seem not to have read the review carefully before slating it, and their "points" are answered by material already present.

In the days when I was active as a scientist and university lecturer it was regarded as standard practice that one reviewed books (and sometimes instruments) as a service to the community. The invitation to carry out such a review depended on one's reputation, and the reviewed item was normally supplied "to keep" or donate to a worthy cause.

I never had any trouble in reviewing books unfavourably when they deserved it, though the hardest review was one I initially wrote saying "I wish I had written this book", but the journal wanted a bit more than that :).

Nobody had any trouble with the distinction between a review - meaning a not-too-formal "how I got on with this" from an experienced colleague - and a formal evaluation (e.g validating an analytical machine, or dissecting a book paragraph by paragraph, following up references, checking mathematics ...) which would be a substantial scientific project involving grants, assistants, publication in a refereed journal etc.

We all need varied sources of information. Direct advertising is useful and easily recognised (mostly). I see no problem with a toolmaker (or book publisher) using the additional route of placing samples with respected workers and asking them to report their experiences for the benefit of the community (and for the maker - but we all have to earn our crust).

The great pity is that people like you, Derek, (and Lyn et al.) don't get funded for in-depth scientific comparisons. Neither individuals nor magazines could afford it, and the results would make dull reading - needing to be "reviewed" to make them accessible :). Also it would become a full-time job for those involved, thus "work" rather than "fun".

Sorry to go on a bit,

Frank (no-so-ex lecturer).

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#57

Keep it up, Derek.

Andrew F in Australia

>That's both the chin and the reviews.

While I'll admit that I don't personally read them in detail (having the tools that I need to do the job already,) they're objective and pretty well laid out from what I've seen.

And there's plenty of people here who are interested in what you've got to say - I'll be honest and say that the only plane I'll be buying is an old hook joint plane when I come across one, but others are incredibly interested in the work you do as it's their hobby and personal interest as well. (I'm referring to way more than a few here.)

Anyway, remember that everyone's willing.

Some are willing to work and others are willing to sit back and point out deficiencies.

Best regards and;

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#58

Re: Another comment, perhaps more to the point

paul womack

>What else could it mean but that the cutting edge isn't straight?

Well, the sole could be convex in width.

Or the blade could be bent in its width.

Or the blade could sharpened with negative camber.

It's clear the cutting edge isn't stright in use; but there are several potential causes of this; several of a plane's components could distort a blade that had a straight cutting edge OUTSIDE the plane.

Remember the fun we had diagnosing a "bent blade" issue for Doug Ball? That thread ran to 19 posts for an equally "obvious" problem.

BugBear

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#59

Re: Questioning morality.

David Barnett - SW Florida

>"If they are in the minority, it would be a travesty to let them dominate the proceedings on this forum."

Whether minority or not, it's never a travesty to do the right thing. Yes, I suppose if this forum is governed by a voting body, I suppose you could call THAT a travesty, but as I understand it, WoodCentral is proprietary.

I can understand how you feel underappreciated for your contribution and all the hard work that went into it. As a critical reader I can adjust to an understandable bias and enthusiasm (to your credit, you DID alert the reader to your means of acquisition), so can fully enjoy what you said and showed. Would it affect buying decisions? Perhaps, but I can appreciate the Byzantine richness of internet information and judge for myself.

While I would hardly go so far as to label your review an infomercial, I'd not exactly categorize it as scrupulously unbiased or based on mostly objective methodologies either. This is not a put-down. Far more egregious were posts by self-promoting toolmakers that often disparaged competition, which left me dubious of their products and character.

As to your opinion on the LN, I remain unconvinced, not so much from bias (you DO have several LN planes) as perhaps an a blind spot in technique, something which happens to us all.

When there's such competition for the handtool market share and so many people who have strong brand loyalties and deeply informed opinions as to how things should work, arguments will arise. I have no problem with that. I am a bit put off by the name calling, however, and think you'd have benefited from a more restrained and gracious response. I think "incredibly vicious attacks" is an overreaction to the initial negative responses. I'm sorry that Mr. Marcou will be unhappy with his business decision but you takes your lumps, as the man says. Marketing is always speculative (and no, it doesn't mean that there is anything untoward in offering a product for review). You could always return the plane, of course, if you feel you fell short, but as it was offered without charge and you were under no performance expectations or bound by contract I'm fairly sure he'll take it in stride. As for Shepherd, they were a special case, I'd say, and in my opinion, flawed from the start.

As for posting future reviews, I hope this controversy will not completely sour you from continuing. Perhaps a change in your approach will deter a repeat of unpleasant suspicions, but that's your call. I read your posts, enjoy them, learn from them and would hate for this to be your last.

By the way, I'd like to applaud those who oversee Handtools for allowing this valid and germane discussion to continue despite its contentiousness. With so many commercial interests represented here, it helps to clear the air now and then. Judicious and restrained oversight keeps this forum worth reading.

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#60

Re: Questioning morality.

Philip F Duffy

>Who is complaining about what? I always read your messages as they seem to have some real content and are worth keeping.. Beside, you live in one of the greatest cities of the world, and I have had the pleasure of walking the beautiful streets when my ship was at Fremantle. Keep up the good work and spirits of Australia! Phil

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#61

Re: thick skinned

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>You mention that you need to have thick skin in order to post reviews, which I totally agree with. On the other hand, I guess that is a character trait you don't posess. You are getting your panties all up in a bunch just because of a few little comments made about your objectivity. I would take this little bit of criticism to heart instead of wondering whether you should keep reviewing tools. I would much rather read a forum that tells it like it really is than a forum where people are afraid to post their real opinion. Concentrate on what you can do to improve the reviews, rather than wondering if you should keep reviewing. And grow some skin.

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#62

Jack Guzman from Maine

Re: Questioning morality.

Jack Guzman from Maine

>Derek,

I think the only reason you should stop from giving reviews is if you agree with the criticism.I personally am grateful for you and others that review tools.Even if biased,this information is valuable.It is information that can be used when deciding on a tool purchase.

I don't know about others but I don't take any reviewer's word for anything.The negative responses are just as helpful.It helps balance out the facts.I just wish people who disagree would keep to the facts.However don't let the critics deter you,your reviews are needed.

Please keep reviewing tools.---Jack

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#63

Re: Questioning morality.

Todd Hughes

>If you want to write these reviews and post them here do it..if you don't , don't

...More then once you stated that while reviewing somthing you would be objective and point out any problims you had with the product and tell us what you really think...thats good. Now when it seems some are doing the same thing when they review your review...OH! OH! we are being told this is shabby treatment of you.If it is too hot in the kitchen then perhaps it is better that you stay out of it.

...I have very little interest in these types of planes and personaly I think the one reviewed is kind of funny looking and un attractive but I did think your review was well wrote and thought out. I also can appreciate the effert it took you to write it just as I can appreciate the effert it took for the plane maker to make the plane.While mildly interesting [no reflection on you but more on my lack of interest in such planes] your review really had no surprises and I don't think really had much to offer up , again not a reflection on you but on what you were reviewing. A review of a well made and expensive plane comes to the conclusion that it works very well...now that's news I wasn't expecting to hear!

.....My take is that the review was most certainly an advertisement for the maker, I think that Philip Marcou thinks the same other wise he wouldn't have basicaly paid you $1,300 to write it up. I don't think anyone believs the reason he gave you one of his planes was because he just wanted to know what you thought about it but rather he wanted some "Free" exposure pushing his planes.

....I was in the custom knife world for years and this is standard procedure there too. I have friends that are writers /reviewers as well as the makers and no writer would ever write a bad review on a knife that was given him. If he did I think he would have trouble getting another one to "review", eh? My friend once had to send 2 knives back to a maker after they broke befor he could get one he could complete his "unbiased review" with. Of course this was left out of the review. Now I am not saying anything like this went on here but I think most people think when the maker pays the reviewer of his product to review it things like this happens.

.... Todd

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#64

Re: thick skinned

Brent Smith in Montreal

>Moses there is a difference between critisism of a review and calling someone on there objectivity. The first is a valid form of discussion on the subject matter. The second is an attack on a persons character. To say that a person has thin skin because he doesn't appreciate his character being attacked is ridiculous.

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#65

I'd differ.

David Barnett - SW Florida

>I don't believe questioning one's objectivity is the same as impugning their character. Poor objectivity is more often the result of flawed methodology rather than any shortcoming in character. I know many fine souls who are rarely if ever objective in how they see the world. I'd make a distinction between feigning objectivity to promote a hidden or self-serving purpose versus falling short of or lacking objectivity in any given task or time-frame. Objectivity is a viewpoint, not necessarily a virtue in itself, not to say a reviewer shouldn't try his (or her... sigh) best to be as objective as possible.

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#66

Contrary opinion

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>You should keep doing the reviews and you should keep posting them elsewhere, but if the WoodCentral community doesn't appreciate the reviews, them why bother with the effort to post them here?

I guess you need to decide to what extent the personal attacks on you were representative of the feelings of the WoodCentral community. In the past, WoodCentral has worked well because the community has been largely self regulating when it comes to unacceptable behavior and has had the wisdom and foresight to see that ill-mannered postings and differences over "hot" topics such as politics and religion cause more harm than good when they are debated here. This time, the continued non-involvement of the forum moderators, the owner, and a substantial number of respected members I consider to be akin to "senior members" of the community doesn't give me great confidence. Their tolerance for the ad-hominem attacks and slurring of your reputation doesn't fill me with confidence. In effect, the "parents and adults" of this family stood by an watched while a bunch of malcontents beat up on one of us. A simple reminder about the need for civility and manners could have helped a lot.

Much as I hate saying it Derek, I reckon you shouldn't post any more of your reviews on WoodCentral. I hate saying that because taking away something from WoodCentral will diminish the forum slightly. But that is what the forum members seem to want to happen. It�s their call.

You should still do the reviews and post them elsewhere. Those of us who are interested will still be able to find them and those who would rather not see them on WoodCentral don't have to feel offended about so-called infomercials appearing in a place that they have arbitrarily deemed should be free of infomercials produced by you (although plenty of other so-called infomercials seem to slip through without any issues).

regards

Angus Barclay

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#67

Re: I'd differ.

Brent Smith in Montreal

>David, when I said that calling a man thin skinned because his objectivity is called into view it was in a context that you mentioned. Some have accused Derek, and other reviewers, of feigning objectivity to promote a product. This in my opinion is an attack on a person's character. Saying that, more often than not, the tool in question is left with the reviewer as payment for a favorable review is also questioning the reviewers morals.

Questioing the findings of the reviewer or his/her objectivity, if not phrased as an accusation, is expected. A reviewer who has a soft spot for infill planes may not be able to objectivly do a comparison to metal body planes because of his/her preferances. In such a case a reader may call into question the reviewers findings based on his/her preformed expectations. But, when a reviewers findings are called into question based on the assumption that he has been payed to find for the product, that is an attack on character. Of course, there are reviewers out there that do just that, but that doesn't alleviate the frustration that a truly unbiased reviewer feels when accussed of it.

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#68

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed

Ted Owen, Moderator

>Most of the discussion on this thread has been legitimate, and it certainly has been interesting. But a few of the comments have been over the line as personal attack. Please, folks, try to be careful about that.

In any event, I don't think any good can come from further discussion, so it's time for the thread to end.

No public responses to this posting are necessary. But I always welcome comments or questions via email.

Best, Ted

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#69

I must be missing something here...

David Barnett - SW Florida

>"Their tolerance for the ad-hominem attacks and slurring of your reputation doesn't fill me with confidence."

I reread the thread start to finish and I apparently don't understand where Derek is being attacked. I DO see where several folks question how accepting a plane in trade for writing the review could affect its outcome, entirely legitimate under the circumstances. I'm not saying Derek should be like Caesar's wife, but I also don't see why those who question his way of conducting business should be defensively characterized as rude or crass. Look at it this way; perhaps those criticizing this apparently common practice of manufacturer compensation for reviews rather than publishers footing the bill (yes, I realize the grey area with advertisers, and so on) are defending impartiality and forum integrity from uneven treatment of tool makers and purveyors. If so, I understand how disappointed Derek feels but it has to come with the territory. Reviewing is an activity that is overwhelmingly argumentative and contentious -- try acadaemia if you think it's tough here -- and long-term surviving reviewers are often provocateur personalities that thrive on this sort of thing. In fact, if there's no apres squabble, many consider their review to have been a failure.

Now I'm not suggesting that should be the model here. Far from it. Anyway... I think Derek should take these lumps in stride. Remorse for the planemaker is understandable, but is perhaps moreso because Derek is at least somewhat beholden to Mr. Marcou. Would you expect the same feeling from a reviewer? Or is this more what you'd expect from an advertiser who let his client down?

Maybe there really are drawbacks to such arrangements. Disclosure is admirable but simply may not be a blanket remedy.

Re: The Marcou S15/BU Smoother - Reviewed *LINK*

#70

This thread has ended

Ted Owen, Moderator

>Let's give it a break for a few days. If there's truly anything helpful to be said, it will still be helpful next week.

Best, Ted

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