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LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

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LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#1

LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>This is mostly in response to Dave Thompson in the "Why does reading this thread get my blood boiling" sub-thread far below, so I'll start a new one up here... I guess I missed Dave's response when posted, otherwise I would have replied already.

"I've never even held an LV62"

Well, that explains your lack of enthusiasm for the beast... Try one, you will be impressed... And not to be picky, it should be called a 62 1/2...

"I think the weight had zero to do with it. #62 is a jack of all trades, master of none.... well, actually, I do think it is a very fine chute plane, and probably the best out there for end grain butcher blocks. I still stand by my assertion that the relative scarcity [of Stanley 62s] may be an indication of how favorable a BU jack was back then amongst a much larger plane user population."

Well, the 62 1/2 is indeed a jack of all trades, but the "master of none" part shows that you haven't tried it... In Blood & Gore Leach sees the Stanley 62 as a very good plane, yet at the same time warns the potential buyer to check for nicks and cracks, which to me indicates that the Stanley's construction was too weak, probably hampering performance and durability. That would help explain its lack of popularity, although I'm speculating here (inertia probably helped too). The LAJ weighs about 60% more than the Stanley, so it is sturdy enough. Weight has everything to do here, not zero...

"I suggest you try using your jack size plane for smoothing and also edge jointing for a a couple of projects. I have a high level of confidence that you'll have the same opinion. If you already have been doing this, then I would suggest comparing this to a smoother for smoothing, and a jointer for jointing. Depending on the length of your stock, a short jointer is going to reduce your chances of producing a straight edge. Regarding the smoothing, one is trying to just take off gossamer shavings... If one has a long smoother, there is absolutely no room for even the slightest of stock warpage and still keep that blade pulling off gossamer shavings, i.e. the kind of warpage one might see over a couple of day period by just allowing the wood to sit untouched in one's shop acclimating to humidity changes."

"The Rules", oh, "The Rules"... Not addressed to you in particular, Dave, but this one gets me cranked up every time... Where in the world is it written that one has to use an absolute specific plane to do one given task? Pushing it to the extreme, one could joint with a block plane or smooth with a jointer (which is what Ian Kirby allegedly does, BTW). If the piece you were working on warped a bit, shouldn't you make it flat again before smoothing anyway? I saw Rob Cosman take transparent end-grain shavings with a #8, talk about mismatch... But it worked, although I doubt he'd use the same plane all day for that kind of task...

The fact is, if the surface you're working on is flat enough for a smoother and not for a jack, the "out-of-flatness" must be quite severe, certainly enough to have to flatten the board flat again, given the relatively small difference in size between a smoother and a jack. I should run numbers on this...

As far as jointing with the jack goes, if the surface is relatively small the jack will do a fine job. Sure, if the surface is long and/or wide the jointer obviously has the advantage. But get to a 4' x 10' tabletop , and the regular jointer gets too small too... That's probably why they used to make woodies at 30+ inches long for jointing long stock. In the end it's just an issue of scale, and for furniture-size parts one can do a lot with a jack. I'm not saying that the jack is the best tool for jointing, but in lots of situations it will do the job, and probably save time from going from a jointer to a smoother. And as far as gossamer shavings goes, the LV LAJ does them beatifully...

Again, in the end Jeff asked about getting one plane. You don't see this as being realistic. Whether or not it is true, he gave no indication that he wanted to start a collection. So the issue becomes what plane would be best suited for someone who's buying only one plane. I maintain that the Veritas LAJ is the best choice given the parameters given.

I'll go even further than that... You can put me on the record for saying that the Veritas LAJ surpasses all the smoothers that I've tried. That would include all the Veritas (I've tried them all, even the 164 that you like a lot), and the LN, Record and Clifton #4. The weight, feel, balance and performance are incomparable IMHO. That the plane is so versatile is just the icing on the cake.

Since you don't mind having more planes, I'll issue a challenge... Buy the LV LAJ, try it, and if you're not impressed you can even return it at no risk to you. But something tells me that you'll end up keeping it...

As far as aesthetics are concerned, I don't really care for them. If the plane performs, that's all that matters to me. If not making it better looking makes it less expensive, I'm all for it.

And finally, I'm not here to defend LV, they don't need my help :)

Take care,

DC


Dave's post

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#2

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules"

Dave Thompson

> [Denis] You can put me on the record for saying that the Veritas LAJ surpasses all the smoothers that I've tried. That would include all the Veritas (I've tried them all, even the 164 that you like a lot), and the LN, Record and Clifton #4. The weight, feel, balance and performance are incomparable IMHO. That the plane is so versatile is just the icing on the cake.


Yes Denis, since the LV62.5 surpasses all the smoothers you've tried and you're obviously happy with it, there is certainly no reason to change. I guess the same goes for the jointing too. If later, this isn't the case, that may be a good time to explore other possibilities.

This is a useful forum where people of various experiences share ideas. Imagine if one vocal person tried XYZ and thought it was the best thing since sliced bread and enthusiaticly told everyone about it. If no one chimes in and says, actually ABC is better in this situation and DEF is better in that situation, then everyone would spend their money on XYZ, and the group would not be well served.

I stand by my points in the postings which address a 62 style plane.


Frankly, I feel like we're beating a dead horse. There's alot of good postings from many people on the original thread. I don't have much enthusiasm to continue this topic. Let's try again next month ;-)

enjoy,

Dave

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#3

The LN 8 ROCKS!!!

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>HI Denis,

I can't believe your not a fan of the LN #8 as a smoother jointer plane. It doesn't get any better then that!!!

That puppy is a solid 10 pounds and will drive trhough anyting including dense eastern maple end grain! Perfect for shooting!!

The LN 8 will definitely smooth and joint a board in one pass if you slightly relieve the corners on the blade to avoid plane tracks!

The LN 8 also works well in a vice similar to a power jointer where you push the wood over the blade with a stick

Cheers

Dan C

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#4

Do I detect a bit of sarcasm here?

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>I tried the LN #8, and it's a wonderful plane. The price is less palatable, though...

DC

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#5

Re: Do I detect a bit of sarcasm here?

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>But it does EVERYTHING!!! and joints better then a jack plane

Sarcastic Dan Clermont (who believes you will never get everyone to agree on the best "single" plane or BU vs BD)

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#6

Yeah, but it's not the best at endgrain :)

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>And as much as it rocks, the price sucks!

DC

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#7

Re: Yeah, but it's not the best at endgrain :)

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>The cut won't be as clean as a low angle plane but trust me the momentum won;t make it quiver or jam like a smaller lighter plane on dense woods.

The price is a one time investment and it can do soooooo many tasks.

Take Care

Dan Clermont

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#8

Another question entirely

Joel

>Here's a question-

When I started woodworking I too wanted one plane - I bought the one my teacher recommended a #4 - Actually a 604 but after trying a bunch of smoothers that was the one that felt best in my hand. (this was long before any of the new makers were making new planes).

I used it, with a stock iron I might add, for years before I got another plane and it worked and still works brilliantly for smoothing, shooting, endgrain, dovetails, and general trimming.

Now of course I own several hundred planes but I'm a collector so I don't actually use most of them. But I still use that 604 all the time.

Be herein lines a question. My teacher wanted to recommend a very useful plane that would last me a long time. Not a specifically inexpensive plane, or a general purpose plane I would outgrow. A #4 doesn't do everything but for (and I can tell you from expereice finally) that except for special purpose planes, or dressing lumber - which most people do by machine, It served me brilliantly and and later when I added more planes - I added longer planes for dressing and of course a shoulder plane.

I get this question all the time and what should one do:

Recommend a general purpose plane that is the master of nothing and will eventually, ideally be replaced or superseeded by more task specific tools,

Recommend an inexpensive plane - so as not to scare someone off. - either an old plane that may or may not work out of the box, or a block plane. Personally I have never found a use for block planes because for real work I find them too uncomfortable and for trimming and endgrain my 604 does everything that a block plane can do - but a block plane is a common recommendation I have never agreed with.

or do as I was told and did, recommend the first in a series of purchases understanding that over the years more tools would be added.

Certainly if one is serious the actual cost of a group of planes bought over a 10-15 year period compared to the cost of wood, and other tools isn't that high. (and if you get old planes it's very low). and a if additions mostly obsolete previous purchases that raises the long-term cost.

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#9

You guys are still there????

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC

>C'mon. Both are excellent planes, no doubt. $$ is the common "divider".

How about an arm-wrestle? ;-) Better than grabbing your revolvers and standing back to back!

Ooops, I forgot, both of you are Canuckians! You don't have any revolvers.

OK... Whoever finds the first free cup of Timmy, wins!

;-)

Chico...

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#10

Ahhh Man...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond,CA

>Chico, It was just gettin' good...

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#11

Re: Another question entirely

C.R. Miller

>Couldn't agree more, Joel. Couldn't agree more.

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#12

Excellent post!

Bob Hackett(Mainely,Bob)

>As in most really well thought out replies the answer really is "it depends what you really want to do" or "Can you be more specific",as you have stated so well Joel.

Trying to steer a newbie neander a "One best plane" could be compared to steering someone from the noisy side to a Shopsmith,and we all know where that leads.

MB

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#13

Now that's unfair...

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>A Shopsmith? Come on...

A Felder combo, that would be a more appropriate comparison... :)

DC

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#14

Re: You guys are still there????

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>I am on my way to Timmy's right now

;)

Dan Clermont (who was just trying to make a point that one can make do with pretty much any good bench plane)

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#15

the perils of asking "enthusiasts"" for advice

bill tindall

>I try to stay of out of these plane discussions but Joel's post has encouraged me to add something that seldom gets mentioned.....

Most planes are use by most people for fitting parts. I would venture that only tiny fraction of 1st time plane purchases are made to acheive an eventual goal of building things completely with hand tools, or replacing sand paper.

For the typical 1st time plane buyer Joel's experience is right on. A #4, or 41/2 if you like the extra weight, is the ideal length for typical part fitting. It is the plane I most commonly see in shops that have the objective of making things of wood, be it boat builders or period furniture makers. It sits in these shops among the power tools that most people are going to rely on for lumber sizing, straightening and smoothing. These shops/people will never have an interest or need, for planes that replace a planer, jointer, router/shaper or sand paper.

Planes do something that power tools are not so good at; they nibble 0.001" increments of material away in a controlled fashion to achieve the +/-0.003" tolerances essential for good fits. Something the size of a #4, with bevels up or down, plus a shoulder plane is all a furniture builder with power tools is going to need. (Personally, I like a block plane too, as it is a handy size for some things.) I agree with Joel that if one's first plane purchase is a useable #4 sized plane, it will be a plane you will never not use if you make things of wood.

I never use the #5 I have, as it is too long for the things I do with a plane. I don't see my furniture building friends using theirs either. It was the plane recommended to me by the planing enthusiasts on Badger Pond. (I will agree that it is a handy carpenter plane. I have used it for door hanging in houses)

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#16

Aha... Nope! No sneaking now Don....

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC

>Just keep going to Timmy now. No last momento remarks! Go to Timmy and roll up the rim! Then we'll see....

Chico...

PS: I am in my 3 dozen cups of coffee since started, nothing yet! NADA! Zilch. Not even a free donut. Can you believe this?

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#17

That should read: "DAN"

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC

>I always mix up Dan & Don all the time.... Sorry.

Chico...

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#18

Re: Yeah, but it's not the best at endgrain :)

Dean in Burlington

>Why do you keep talking about price? What does it cost $500. This is alot of money???? How much did you spend on your last car which will only last roughly 10 years. Heck....what did you spend on your last tank of gas? What about dinner and a movie with your wife....what does that cost? Always remember though....you get what you pay for!!!

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#19

Re: ex-Soviet

ThomD

>"As far as aesthetics are concerned, I don't really care for them. If the plane performs, that's all that matters to me."

I think that is impressively naive. The LV planes remind me of the story about the discount "No Name" grocery store that paid a huge sum for a design brief that expensively suggested tearing up the existing flooring, and grinding back to the cement beneath, in order to create the impression of a store built on a budget. It was very much the intention of the LV brand to be placed between the Stancord planes and fancy stuff like the LN. They clearly spent maximum dollars to recruit the very best in ex-Soviet designers, and the vodka flowed late many nights before they could come up with just the right cheesyness to convince you this stuff was different and all about practicality. It IS a thing of beauty when you look at it from a marketing perspective.

"If not making it better looking makes it less expensive, I'm all for it"

On just hopes that these tools don't inspire you to feel this way about the work also.

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#20

you get what you pay for

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Only if you're lucky.

Aside from that, not everyone has a cumfy high tech salary that leaves a lot of room for splurging.

Pam

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#21

Interesting... Two things...

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>First, I didn't say that I don't find Veritas planes attractive. But they could be plaid colored with pink polka dots as far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't give a hoot if the performance's still there.

Second:

"On just hopes that these tools don't inspire you to feel this way about the work also"

Just wondering here... Are you saying that if one doesn't have "beautiful" tools he/she can't produce beautiful, high quality work?

DC

BTW, how come you're in Canada yet use an Aussie e-mail address? Just curious...

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#22

Quality. not Quantity

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Hi Pam,

Where their is a will their is a way! Lotsa people out there like to buy a half dozen or so smoothers which add up to way more then the cost of one good smoother. Same goes for jacks and jointers.

I am not condemning these people as I am one of them who has slowly started to sell off some of his unised planes cause they are not needed.

Cheers

Dan Clermont

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#23

Passion has no price tag Pam.

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC

>That is the truth.

I believe the fancy toolmakers of our time know this very well as well as the toolmakers of yesterday. This is nothing new.

Also, when you fuss over precision it's quite difficult to come up with something that is not easy on the eyes. So, IMO beauty is some side effect of the precision made tools.

Chico...

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#24

Q on the rules.

Paul Kierstead

>One of yours (I assume the "?" was rhetorical:

If the piece you were working on warped a bit, shouldn't you make it flat again before smoothing anyway?

Why? Is there some particular reason why all surfaces have to be flat to some very fine precision?

Re: LV LAJ and "The Rules" *LINK*

#25

Same goes with Magazines

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>I find FWW with its glossy pictures and detailed pieces to be inspirational. I find it makes me want to follow in the footsteps of those published on those glossy pages. More so then say wood magazine.

Wth all that said Popular woodworking is my fave magazine for tips and techniques.

Dan Clermont

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