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To camber or not to camber

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To camber or not to camber

#1

To camber or not to camber

David W. Dougherty

>Last night, I read the new issue of PWW. In the Letters section, I read a scathing commentary, written by a UNC academic, criticizing David Charlesworth's methods of sharpening and planing (e.g., the use of cambered irons, etc.).

I spent years in academia, surrounded by arrogant people who stand proud on their higher and deeper piles of self-importance; people who seem to have nothing better to do than slam other peoples' work if it doesn't fit their over-rigorous model of life, the universe, and everything. I wonder if he's even tried these techniques? There's nothing I hate more than criticism from the spectators' bleachers.

I am happy that PWW was kind enough to allow David a rebuttal, which he took on in his usually eloquent and factual manner, but I'm still tweaked nonetheless. Did this article rub anybody else the wrong way?

I have learned a great deal from watching David's DVDs and reading his articles, and I'm getting results I would never have thought possible before.

*hops down off soapbox*

Re: To camber or not to camber

#2

Re: To camber or not to camber

Kelly

>I usually learn something from the woodworking magazines, books , and videos that I read/watch. I haven't seen much of David Charlesworths' work but what I have has been very informative. The guy that wrote the letter sounded like he knew it all and if he did not do it, then it could not be correct. Not everything will work for everyone but to condemm something outright, espically from someone of Charlesworths' caliber, just dosen't seem right to me.

Re: To camber or not to camber

#3

Re: To camber or not to camber

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>While I agree that there are many self-important who like to tear down others, it may be a mistake to attribute that motivation to someone you don't even know. S/he may have been trying educate the readers that cambered irons are not always the way to go. And the fact that s/he wrote a letter says s/he is not in the bleachers, s/he is a player.

I have absolutely no desire to make microbevels on my Japanese irons and have said so on this forum. Such a statement has nothing to do trying to slam David or mock his efforts. It's to have a full discussion of the method, when it may be appropriate and inappropriate.

Pam

Re: To camber or not to camber

#4

Re: To camber or not to camber

dennis mcdonaugh

>He came on a little strong, but I sorta agree with him. I don't do microbevels on the backs of my plane irons and chisels and just round off the corner of my smoother, no camber. I don't think my way is the only way or even the best way to sharpen however. It is just the best way for me to do it right now, but that may change in the future. I wouldn't have used the tone the esteemed professor from UNC used to disagree with the article. but I think Mr. Charlesworth may have gotten a shot or two at the professor in return.

Re: To camber or not to camber

#5

Jim in Burlington Ont.

Had a look at some of his work

Jim in Burlington On

>I can only dream of making furniture to that skill level. Even his method of sanding work is way beyond me. If you notice in his video he smoothed out LN's bench to help him achieve a better shaving. He's been writing great articles in English magazines for year with pictures of his work. A show of his work and students would be worth the flight over to see.

Those who say it is impossible should not get in the way of people who are doing it. Read that somewhere years ago and it stuck with me.

Re: To camber or not to camber

#6

Re: To camber or not to camber

Dave Anderson Chester,NH

>I don't personallly agree with David C's back bevel ideas, but I do understand their use and the theory behind them. They are just not for me. I have to agree however that the letter came on too strong and I also would characterize the tone as arrogant AND academic. I strongly suspect that it will elicit a large number of letters to the editor over the next few issues of FWW. Perhaps it'll be reminiscent of the bent nail door pull controversary of several years ago.

Sadly, I expect to see far more heat than light from the any future exchanges and I expect that a number of characters will be assassinated, or at the very least, wounded.

Re: To camber or not to camber

#7

My first time

Neal White (San Jose)

>Succesfully edge-jointing two boards and achieving a good (not just acceptable) joint was the first time I tried David Charlesworth's method. The clouds parted, the angels sang, and my joint FIT! O.K, so I exagerate - there was only one angel. But, I guess you can guess which side of this discussion I'm on.

Re: To camber or not to camber

#8

It's not a camber...

Scott Burr windy and raining in Ben Lomond,CA

>I have a feeling your talking about flattening back of blades, i.e. flattening back is a a completely different animal IMHO.

Personally I don't believe in the Daivd method of doing it. Again IMHO.

Re: To camber or not to camber

#9

For those not aware

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Preiss (the author of the scathing letter) used to be an editor of Fine Woodworking 20 or so years ago. Just so that you know... I think he was "over the top" in his criticism of Charlesworth, but like anything there's no black or white, only shades of gray...

WARNING: enlightened rank amateur here...

Last week I would have called myself a pure rank amateur, but for the last four days I've been taking a Craftsmanship class at Rosewood Studio. The owner, Ted Brown, was a student of James Krenov at CR, so I would call his credentials pretty solid...

Preiss has a major issue regarding the use of cambered irons. I used to think that way. I thought that easing off the corners was sufficient with a flat blade. The teaching I received this week has had me re-thinking that point of view.

This week, as part of the curricullum (sp?) we had to make the "perfect board". One perfectly flat face (no plane tracks or any other blemish), with an edge at a perfect 90 degree angle to the face, then the edge both at 90 degree to the face and the edge. ABSOLUTELY no room for error. Half a thou off was "fail".

Before getting on that exercise we were taught the fine points of grinding and honing a slight camber on the plane blade. We were told (and demonstrated) the reasons as to why we should use a camber, and how to use it to our advantage while smoothing the face and correcting an angle that's off 90 degree on the edge. I won't get into the details here, let's just say that the approach makes sense.

I was kind of the "black sheep" of the group's students, I used flat blades and sandpaper (on granite) instead of grinders and stones. Still I tried to put some camber on my LV LA jack blade (which I love dearly). Getting a camber on a low angle bevel up plane blade is a lot more work than on a bevel down blade, so I ended up with a "thinnest shaving" much wider that what can be done with a BD blade. It ended up being a good thing, Ted actually told me that he's never seen a surface that good from someone who uses sandpaper for honing (and a bevel-up plane, for that matter). My conclusion: less camber (but more than zero) is better on the board's face. A very shallow camber does a better job, IMHO.

When it came to trueing the edge, more camber had its goods and bads. While having a camber makes it relatively easy to correct the edge's angle (run the plane off on the high side of the edge, with a final pass in the middle when the edge is at 90 degree), with the cambers used with our planes the middle of the board's edge would be a couple thou or so shy of flat. Fine if you are trueing the edge of a tabletop, not so good for edging boards for glueing (especially with non gap-filling glues like PVA) IMHO. The end was trimmed with a block plane, flat iron, that made for more work.

After all that work, they had us rip that board in two (on the principle that if you have a narrow jointer you will need to split the board up so that you be able to joint each part), but it had to be done in the least visible way, and then glued up back together. That meant cutting the board along a grain line as straight as possible, whick was inevitably not in line with the board's length. Jointing the edges individually with cambered blades to then glue the two parts back together was a major PITA, somehow I couldn't get the whole edge right. Out of frustration I went to the Rosewood store, purchased a LV BU jointer, re-ground the blade to a flat 34 degree angle, clamped the two pieces together and jointed the edge. 3-4 passes and that was it.

Bottom line, the cambered iron approach has benefits, but is not a panacea. In certain situations a flat iron is best.

Regards, from an "enlightened" rank amateur,

DC

Re: To camber or not to camber

#10

Re: GREAT INFORMATION!

paul womack

>

Re: To camber or not to camber

#11

Re: For those not aware

ydb1md

>Cambers have their place in the woodshop but they can be difficult to master. Chris Schwarz did a great job covering the degree of camber that each plane type should have. In order from the most camber to least camber Chris advocates: scrub, fore, jointer, smooth.

The jointer and smoother should have almost no camber -- just enough to avoid plane tracks. A jointer with that little camber shouldn't have a hard time edge jointing a board.

Re: To camber or not to camber

#12

I had a positive impression becasue.....

bill tindall

>My reaction to the exchange was positive. I enjoyed reading the challenge and rebuttal. FWW used to allow a passionate discussion of ideas (look at some of the early issues) and it was refreshing to see an editor allow/encourage this "edgy" exchange.

If I have learned anything on this Forum it is that there are several ways to successfully perform a woodworking operation and what is "best" depends strongly on individual experience and goals. I find all the producers of videos less than honest for not comparing and contrasting their approach to that of others.

A person that approached this exchange of letters with an open mind should come away with the conclusion that there are two (at least) ways to approach plane iron configuation. Now the important part....knowing that neither of these ways is the only way to do it, they will be encouraged to experiment with both, or even a different way. As a result they will eventually arrive at what is best for their skill level and goals.

I have heard reaction to David's videos from club members and some who are uninterested in the finest points of planing are put off by all the futzing. For them, a sharp- straight edge is their best entry to the benefits of hand planing. Make it complicated or demanding enough and they will simply dismiss planes as objects that stand in the way to getting a project completed. Personally, I am glad that I was not exposed to David before I got comfortable with simply sharp.

Re: To camber or not to camber

#13

Re: For those not aware

dennis mcdonaugh

>Dennis, how can you get a "perfectly" flat board with a cambered iron? At best you get a board that doesn't have blade marks in it, but small depressions running its length

Re: To camber or not to camber

#14

"flat" is relative

ydb1md

>A smoother might have a miniscule camber on it, say .001 at either edge. Worst case you might have a board with depressions .0005 to .001 down it's length -- if none of your smoothing didn't over lap.

If your smoothing passes overlapped you'd take off the high points and end up with depressions < .0005 to .001 deep. That's pretty flat in my book.

Re: To camber or not to camber

#15

Another testament.....

Jeff Schmidt

>....in support of match planing for edge jointing.

Re: To camber or not to camber

#16

Re: Another testament.....

Paul Kierstead

>Yes. I keep a #7 with a fair camber (maybe 0.005") in it for jointing true 90 degree edges, and a #8 with a dead straight iron for match planing and finishing after the #7. It takes only a single swipe with the #8 after the #7 to take the convex shape out of the edge. I have found this combo to give the best of both worlds. Being wed to one or the other is just being dogmatic, IMHO.

Re: To camber or not to camber

#17

Re: Dead Straight

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Are you suggesting that your #8 iron has considerably less deviation than .005 inches over its 2 5/8" width? Just how "dead straight" do you think it is?

Re: To camber or not to camber

#18

Re: Dead Straight

Frank D. in Montreal

>I know my number 8 has considerably less than a thou deviation, at least that's what I figure because I can take a .001" shaving that is full width.

Re: To camber or not to camber

#19

Re: Dead Straight

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Actually a deviation of .0014 would allow you to take a full width shaving of no more than .001 if your iron is bedded at 45 degrees.

Re: To camber or not to camber

#20

Re: It's not a camber...

David W. Dougherty

>The article actually condemns both: cambered edges and back bevels.

Re: To camber or not to camber

#21

Re: Dead Straight

Paul Kierstead

>Are you suggesting that your #8 iron has considerably less deviation than .005 inches over its 2 5/8" width? Just how "dead straight" do you think it is?

I don't "think" it is, I measured it. Really, 0.005 is quite noticable over that length, and would give quite a nice amount of light if you hold up a straight edge to it.

There is a certain ... aggression to your reponse. From whence doth this come?

Re: To camber or not to camber

#22

Re: Dead Straight

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I apologize for my question, Paul. I don't always get the tone I want in my writing. I do wonder about phrases like "perfectly flat" and "dead straight", and I'm not sure there isn't some overlap between people who consider that they have a very mild camber, and those who consider their edges "perfect". Are people with dead straight edges going to extreme measures or are they just not intentionally rounding?

Re: To camber or not to camber

#23

Re: Dead Straight

Paul Kierstead

>Ah well, in this case "dead-straight" meant with no noticable camber; i.e. hold it against a straight edge, no light (well, in my shop anyway). It didn't require extreme measures, just a flat surface to sharpen on. In this case, initial honing on a Veritas power sharpener and then final honing on stones which had been flattened just before. I did check since I was interested in getting it quite straight (probably more then required). The blade is so wide that it causes some grief on stones.

I realize that a little camber tends to sneak in without trying, but it isn't that hard to prevent if you want to.

I know that some of the terms like "dead-straight" can irk some of the ,um, more semantically rigorous people, but of course such terms are normally used within reasonable limits. If we fully qualify everything the reading gets too boring to bother and the real meaning tends to get lost amongst the details. But we digress :) The point was that having both a straight blade and a well cambered one makes for nice working, offering the advantages of both.

Re: To camber or not to camber

#24

Re: To camber or not to camber

arw01

>I read this letter this morning after reading the fervor here on WC.

The professor is frothing at the mouth, to be put mildly. The same frothing which declared Galileo to be a heritic.

Two of Charlesworth's video's reside in my house, I plan to order a third when I can justify it. I also own 4 of Rob Cosman's videos. Last summer I took a class with Rob, and David is a friend of Rob's. Rob teaches the lateral adjuster method of jointing an edge, I follow Charlesworths and I have good luck and pretty quickly at that.

In class I watched the ruler trick performed, and the ease, and speed it allowed us wee students to get back to work. If you have ever spent the time really flattening an A2 blade, you can appreciate getting back to work!

At this point, I've not mastered plane track free smoothing yet. For a time I had it with my Knight Smooter, but I lost my ability to set that plane perfectly for the moment. My no 4 leaves a beatiful surface, but I've not quite gotten it cambered enougth to leave no plane tracks. Putting the correct camber on is not that easy. With these A2 irons I either really mess it up, or it's not enough.

I've watched Rob get a board so flat as no light shows through from direct sun, and I have looked at my board and decided it was good enough when maybe a half thousand shows in a place or two.

Alan

Re: To camber or not to camber

#25

Re: To camber or not to camber

keith turner(vancouver)

>Having been on one of David's long courses I obviously have a biased view. Firstly are we talking about the ruler trick or a back bevel? Both of which David teaches.

The ruler trick puts such a small angle on the blade and saves so much time, I really can't see what the arguement is about.(David never puts any bevels on the back of his chisels)

He also puts a back bevel on his plane blade if it is to be used on highly figured or wild grain, this is to raise the effective pitch of the iron, the results are astounding.

The idea behind a chambered blade is that the sole of the plane is in contact with wood 100% when edge jointing, if the edge is not square all you have to do is move the plane over , if there was no chamber the plane would have to be tilted which would result in only a small percentage of the plane sole being in contact with the wood (or I suppose you could tilt the iron in the plane)

Keith

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