No. 7 vs. No. 8

Re: No. 7 vs. No. 8

Cameron

>Mmmmm, much of a muchness really. If it was one or the other though i'd go with the #8. The #7 is fractionally easier to wield but I'd go for the extra length. I'm not sure I'd bother with the Anant though when there's good secondhand Stanleys around. Not sure what price an Anant #8 is going for nowadays though.

As far as metal vs wood planes it just gets down to personal preferences. The woodies "shift" a bit more but they're easy enough to true up again.

Whichever you decide its well worth thinking about getting a good replacement blade.

Re: No. 7 vs. No. 8

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Andy

Here is an economical kit I have used for 20 years of full time work.

1.Wood Jack Plane (fore plane). For this work a wooden plane is lighter and less tiring. I find that a shorter "scrub" plane is more cramped: your hands are closer together and you don't have the leverage you have with a longer plane.

2.Wood Trying Plane. For the face side of a board. Used for a relatively long time and considerably lighter and less tiring than a metal plane.

3.No.7 Jointer. For edges. Generally you spend less time on edges than flattening the face so weight is not an issue. I had used a No.8 before I bought this plane. I found the 7 lighter, less clumsy than the 8

4. No.3 Smoother. For final surface. Light and versatile

5. No.4 Smoother. I use this for end grain. I also use it for truing small pieces for which the larger planes would be too clumsy.

A three plane kit would be a jack plane, one of the long planes, and a smoother.

Re: No. 7 vs. No. 8

Dave Thompson

>Andy, No 7 and no 8 are pretty close, so you have to take any discussion of differences with a grain of salt. Both will do what the other does fine. One may be slightly better suited than the other.

For edge jointing, I prefer the narrower width of the #7. Theoretically, the #8 is longer, so might make a straighter board, but I don't really buy into this, because natural cambering affects from technique overtake this advantage.

Wood jointers slide like nothing else. You can simulate something similar with an iron jointer for a few strokes by waxing up the sole. Wooden jointers do need to be check for flatness regularly because of seasonal changes in the wood.

On the used market, #7 are probably the second most common plane (to a #5) and subsequently one can get a good deal on them. Used Woodie's are dirt cheap, so you should buy a few to try and then hang up on your wall as decoration ;-)

I use to surface joint my boards by hand. Not because I'm electron-phobic, but rather I preferred constructive exercise and only had a 6" power jointer then. I'll say that doing this with out a power planer is another order of magnitude more effort because you are looking to get boards with both sides parallel and to an exact width. My technique was to surface joint both sides with a #5 so as to remove any cupping or bowing, and then finish up in a power planer. I use to edge joint with a #7 and then make true with a #95. Though I've since perfected the technique of hold a right angle'd (trued) block under the #7 to act as a right angle guide. The perfection of that techinque for me was the realization that one only holds the block on the jointer when one is nearly done, so as to make some final truing passes.

enjoy,

Dave

Re: No. 7 vs. No. 8

VTAndy

>OK, follow-up question -- where could I find an old Stanley #8? I'm concerned that as a newbie, I'll end up with one that I can't tune-up on my own.

Thanks,

Andy

Re: No. 7 vs. No. 8

VTAndy

>Hi Warren,

You use the jack plane in place of a scrub plane? Or is it that you have a wooden jack plane set up as what is essentially a long scrub plane?

How long is the wooden try plane that you use?

Thanks for the response,

BTW I'm originally from Lancaster as well!

Andy

Re: No. 7 vs. No. 8

VTAndy

>Hi Dave,

Thanks for the tip about holding a right angled block to keep the jointer square while truing an edge. I've watched people joint an edge while holding only their hand under the jointer and it blows my mind that it ever trues the edge. I always assumed that you had to use a 95 or some kind of fence attached to the plane.

I wonder if there are any good used hand tool dealers up here -- I'm in Burlington VT but would be willing to drive a couple of hours to go to a place with a good selection.

-Andy

Re: No. 7 vs. No. 8

Andy Lincoln,In Dearborn MI

>Andy,

I can't help you much on choosing between a #7 and a #8.I can help though in giving you a place or two to look for a couple used planes ,that could send you down the spiralling slippery slope.First place I'd go is to Brass City Toolworks and send Walt an email or call him on the phone.I,and others,have bought planes from him and I was always pleased with what I got.His descriptions lean towards the low side,everything has been as nice or better than described.Also he's a great guy and will take the time to look for something and call you when he finds it.

Andy

Re: No. 7 vs. No. 8

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Andy

In the 18th century English and American workers used a wooden plane that was about 15 or 16 inches long for rough work. We call it a jack plane or a fore plane. It is considerably lighter than a wooden jointer or trying plane. I think the scrub plane comes from a continental tradition.

My tryng plane is 22".

Re: Go for the #8

Marc in Luxembourg

>Hi Andy,

I had the same question a couple of weeks ago. Though I already had a #7 and an Ulmia Jointer (woodie), I asked what'd bring #8 more? Well it has heft, the #7 and the woodie lack. The wood's indeed intimidated (like a fellow formulated) by its mass. You push it on and it glides almost by itself through the board (compared to the #7). The more length doesn't matter. The additional weight, the plane being broader than the #7 and the so felt lower point of gravity make it easier (see that on the pic) to join, even on narrow edges. The plane lies stable on the edge. So, if I had the #8, I wouldn't purchase a #7.

The Ulmia is a very good plane, performs well and I'd recommend. But it has less heft, sure. The point of gravity is actually higher and it needs a little more practice to join edges. I took it as sort of fore plane the time I hadn't the #6 (on the left in the pic, the #7 in the center).

So if you can afford, purchase a Bedrock #8. If you want to save money for other tools, go on for an old Stanley #8, maybe with a LN iron. But if you prefer to have a new plane performing well and woodies don't frighten you, go on for an Ulmia.

I think this is very personal choice. The pic to show the difference in size and length. No gloat intended, even if I do not know exactly what "gloat" means.

Have a nice weekend, Marc

tool dealers

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Hi Andy, Sandy Moss who runs SYDNASSLOOT is in New England (Mass?) and is a straight shooter. I just checked his web site

www.sydnassloot.com/

but he dosen't have any thing longer than a #6 in iron planes now.

If you watch his site you will find some beautiful vintage tools for reasonable prices too.JR

Re: No. 7 vs. No. 8

Dean J in MN

>Andy --

Warren has a setup much like mine, my basic stock prep planes are a wood fore plane, a wood 22" try plane, and a woodie smoother.

Note, I didn't mention a jointer...

In my view a jointer isn't really a stock prep tool, it is a joint making tool. So you are asking a question that needs two answers.

If you are asking which of a #7 or a #8 is a good try plane, I'd say it makes little difference, pick the one you fine comfortable pushing. You said you'd like to work without a power jointer/planer so I'd say lighter is better for a try plane. A #6 is a nice smaller try plane as well.

If you want to know which of the #7 or #8 is a better jointer, I'd go with the longest, widest plane you can find. Wide is good, you want to be able to match plane the common stock size you use. So 3 inches wide is needed to match plane 6/4 stock. That width is hard to find if you don't hunt down a long wide woodie jointer. So the #8 has an edge in my mind as a jointer.

Elsewhere you mention a fence for a jointer... No need, jointers don't make edges square. Try planes with their cambered blades do that, and a fence doesn't help in that case. A jointer plane has a square blade, as all joint making planes do.

Wood jointers have a lot going for them... Longer, lighter and often wider.

Others will disagree with my definition of a jointer plane, and it isn't a matter of right vs wrong. This is how I work, you need to pick what works best for you.

-Dean

Get the Veritas Bevel Up Jointer!

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>... then you will have the best of all worlds. This is a #7 level jointer than has the mouth set 1" further back than standard. As a result, this enables it to have the same registration advantages of a #8 jointer.

Plus the BU planes are easier to set up. It has an adjustable mouth, does not use a cap iron, etc, etc. There is also the optional jointer fence that attaches to the side of the plane to aid in maintaining square side (no need for a #95, as some have said they use with a #7 or 8).

This is a very high quality plane, one that you can nevertheless afford. If you get it, you will not be disappointed. I am surprised that no one has suggested it before now.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Get the Veritas Bevel Up Jointer!

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>I would have suggested it, but you beat me to it...

One thing about the #8 that might have been mentioned above (I didn't read all the postings) is that the #8 has a wider blade (2 5/8"), if that's a need you have no choice then.

DC

Re: No. 7 vs. No. 8

Jim in Burlington On

>If your going to tune up planes keep your eye out for those 70's style glass table tops. They are about a 1/2" thick. I paid a 160US with shipping for my 608 and spent about 10 hours tuning, cleaning and painting it. As for a replacement blade I made one out of 01 tools steel. If there had been the new LV jointer plane I'd never have bothered.

Nice grouping Marc...

Scott Burr in rainy Ben Lomond,CA

>A gloat is kind of like rubbing ones face in it. Look what I have (or got), so to speak.

Re: No. 7 vs. No. 8

Adam Cherubini

>For try plane use (squaring up non mating edges, straightening edges etc, flattening faces) there is no practical difference between the #7 and the #8.

When you compare either with a longer wooden plane- the wooden plane will outperform the metal planes. Woodies' thick laminated blades are easier to sharpen without a jig (really can't use a jig with a curved iron), the added length makes for more accurate work, reduced weight and friction make for easier planing and they are often cheaper to boot! So that's an easy choice. You can find these in flea markets throughout new england and readily on ebay for $20 + shipping. In my mind, for this purpose, the decision is a no brainer. The longer woodies are just better tools for the job.

Now let me plant my foot in my mouth:

To some extent it seems to me as tho what Stanley and LN and LV have all done is make a good smoothing plane, then grow it into other planes without regard for the functional distinctions. So I find little commendable about their long planes for example. The stanley/LN jointers are too short and too narrow to be useful in my shop (Doesn LV call their long plane a jointer?). See Dean's comments above. I would say that these companies, well the latter two really DO make excellent smooth planes. So my advice is to find a very long, very inexpensive wooden try plane and save your money for a good new smoother from a company of your choosing. While you are surfing ebay, find yourself a 3/4" skew rabbet and a jack plane with a good handle.

Adam

P.S. While I've got my foot in my mouth- Guys like Rob Cosman for example can get away with having a fleet of LN planes all set up like smoothers. Take away his power planers and jointers and ask him to make stuff and he'd likely change his mind about his planes. This is not to disaparage RC. I'm just trying to point out that the differences in opinion you get may be the result of the actual DOING in the shop. If you've got and use power jointers and planers, you may well need something different from your planes than I do. Ergo,my opinion(s) may only apply to non-electric shops where stock is typically rough sawn or S2S.

No functional difference - whichever one you get

Andrew F in Australia

>Hi ANdy,

There's no real functional difference in the two planes - the heavier mass of the No8 and wider blade make it a trifle easier to use on flattening things, but it's a miniscule difference in the greater scheme of things.

Rather than say the rest of what I was going to say, see Adam Cherubini's post - he's covered the other points very eloquently.

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: No. 7 vs. No. 8

Marc in Luxembourg

>Hi Adam,

What are the features / dimensions of your best jointer, then?

Marc

Neither *LINK*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I'm with Adam almost all the way on this, except you may want to buy a very fine woodie. C&W is my current favorite, what a honey, 30" long. I prefer this to some Japanese variation (assuming they existed, which they do not, but I could make my own if I could obtain a 30" piece of the appropriate wood), because due to the length, they are harder to push than a 22" or below, that handle comes in real handy [sic]. DAMHIKT

Pam


C&W samples

Re: No. 7 vs. No. 8

VTAndy

>Thanks to everyone for the informative replies. I realize now that I was asking for one plane to perform 2 different functions; perhaps what I should look for is a metal try plane and a wooden jointer.

Thank you for the various suggestions of where to track down used tools. I still wonder whether there is a VT-based antique tool dealer.

I'm also going to look into the LV or LN low-angle -- see whether someone nearby has one that I can try out.

Andy

Re: No. 7 vs. No. 8

Adam Cherubini

>I think you are asking what my jointer is like?

I forget exactly how long it is, Marc. Its over 30" long. The blade is 2-7/8" wide Its English, made of beech, and has stayed very true for the 5 years I've had it. I think it was made in the late 19th century. Its mouth is original and pretty tight. I paid $35 for it.

I haven't seen too many others just like it. I'm with Pam, if I needed another one, I'd be inclined to ask C&W for one. You really want a wide iron and a l-o-n-g sole for a jointer.

Adam

Just buy one plane, Andy

Andrew F in Australia

>Hi Andy,

Re: going out and buying two planes, one plane can perform both functions - it's just a question of how quickly it does so.

I joint with a No6. I also flatten tabletops with the same plane.

Buy the first No7 or No8 try plane that you come across in reasonable condition, and see how it works for you before you go to a dedicated jointer. The only real advantage to a jointer comes when you're hand-jointing pieces about 6 foot long or longer.

Larry Williams and Don McConnell do excellent work, from what I've seen (never used one or seen one in the 'flesh', so to speak), and their wooden plane would work very well, probably better than the Stanley equivalent

I bought my wooden jointer (about 36" long or so from memory) from ebay, sold as a wooden block plane for about USD15. (well, it is a wooden block, I suppose). It makes short work of dressing the (machine) jointed edge on larger pieces of wood. I also use it if the board has edges that are too heavily sprung to successfully machine joint

If I'm too lazy at the time to walk to retrieve it, I'll use the No6 as it's my bench plane. Still does the same job at a similar speed, just needs a bit of finesse that the jointer overcomes through being about twice as long.

Hope that this doesn't muddy the waters significantly.

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Just buy one plane, Andy

Dan Donaldson

>I have the C & W trying plane and their small smoother. Their planes not only work well, but are works of art to boot. The workmanship on their planes is incredible.

Re: Just buy one plane, Andy

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>Andy

While I view most advice from Adam and Pam as as near to Gospel as one can get, I am more inclined to focus on something that Andrew has mentioned.

I want to state again that I believe that the best jointer for you is the Veritas (LV) BU Jointer. And, if you were to look at something shorter - not a jointer, more of a panel plane - I would seriously look at their LA Jack.

The point I wish to make is that I understand that you are somewhat of a novice with handplanes. If that is so, then I would not recommend a woodie to you. I love my woodies, and they get used a lot! My longest is a HNT Gordon Try Plane, which is only a #6 length, so I cannot compare it to a jointer such as either Adam's or Pam's. My experience is closer to that of Andrew in that, with finesse, it can be made to joint long lengths as well.

But, if you are a novice, my concern is that you would be intimidated by the finesse required to set up and tune a wooden jointer. There is not a lot to learn, but the LV BU Jointer is light years easier and more reliable! These BU planes are super-easy to get excellent results from, partly because they are super-easy to set up.

Adam and Pam - I would really like you to comment on this point, that is, that whether a woodie jointer is a good recommendation for a novice, or whether - in such a case - the metal plane with-and-adjuster would not be more reasonable?

Regards from Perth

Derek