WoodCentral Forums

Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

vise placement / jointing "assistant"

Posts

vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#1

vise placement / jointing "assistant"

Warren Muse, Earlysville VA

>Hi all,

I'm building a new workbench and am at the point of fitting the vises.

The design is fairly typical:

The top is a 2.25" laminated maple, with no skirts, facings or end-caps. There's a 10" Jorgensen front vise and a 7" Columbian end vise.

Both vises, of course, will have wood faces on both jaws.

I want to add a vertical support, with dog holes, to help hold the end of the workpiece while jointing. This jointing "assistant" should have enough range, both vertically and horizontally, to support a large panel as well as a single board.

My question is this:

Should the front vise be mounted so that the fixed jaw face is flush with the bench front, or should the vise be mounted flush so that the face stands proud of it.

The flush-mount version would look better but would require the assistant be fitted below the bench top, sliding along the top and bottom strechers. The surface mount version would permit the use of a simpler "assistant": two boards joined at right-angles, with the short leg lying on top of the bench, secured by a bench-dog, while the longer leg draped over the front edge of the bench top. (This longer leg would have a vertical row of holes to take dowels to support the work.)

Any thoughts on which would be preferable? Is there anything I'm overlooking?

Thanks.

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#2

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

Hound_va

>The plans that I have seen for the Kirby bench, which sounds similar to your set-up, has the cast iron part of the rear vise jaw mortised into the top so the rear of the wood jaw face is alligned with the front edge of the bench. That puts the front of the rear wood jaw face proud of the front edge of the bench by 1" if your jaw liners are 1" thick.

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#3

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

Dean J in MN

>

My question is this:

Should the front vise be mounted so that the fixed jaw face is flush with the bench front, or should the vise be mounted flush so that the face stands proud of it.

I'd suggest flush to the front of the bench. Even better if the front is flush with the legs. With the rear jaw flush, you can use the entire length of the front as support when edge jointing, rather than having a gap the width of your rear jaw to contend with while working an edge.

-Dean

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#4

Or... *LINK*

Michael Recchione

>I am a fan of simple. The hanging from the top alternative with the vise proud of the front face is good. If you pick up a copy of Robert Wearings' "Making Woodworking Aids and Devices", you'll see a bunch of other things that an iron vise mounted proud of the bench face is good for - mostly in the way of being able to mount different specialized attachments for doing specific things. I sort of took this approach with a small bench I built recently.

But there are a couple of other options as well, that wouldn't require you to have to incorporate a sliding board jack as part of your bench and that would still allow you to mount your vise flush to the bench face.

One of these is to build a "dead man", which is basically a self-supporting board jack that's separate from the bench. (That's what I use on my "main bench". I believe there are some pictures of a nice one that Frank Klausz made in "The Workbench Book". Mine is much more thrown together in 10 minutes looking.) For me, this option has a couple of advantages. One is that since I use a shelf under my bench to hold my most commonly used bench planes, it's important for me keep access to this space unobstructed. A sliding board jack would just be in my way. The second is that, if you're working on a really long board, you can position the dead man past the end of the bench, giving you an effective "bench extension". I've never done that. But I could :-).

The second option is so simple, elegant and lacking in coolness that I hesitate to mention it, but here goes: If you like the idea of the simple hanging board jack but don't want to mount the vise proud of the face, just save a piece of whatever you make the hanging part of the jack out of. Now, when you edge joint, just put that scrap into the vise inboard of the work you're jointing, and voila! If you like, you can rig up a mount for it that's similar to the one that you use for the hanging jack so that it doesn't flop around and doesn't get thrown out accidentally. (This will never make the Tools and Shops issue of anything, but really appeals to the engineer in me.)


Wearing's "Making Woodworking Aids and Devices"

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#5

Vist & Assistant

Garrett in Victoria

>This is a photo of a new bench as I was building it last year.

http://members.shaw.ca/glia/Bench/2%20vises.jpg

My Emmert clone is set out from the face. I've never felt the need to have it inset.

The bench "assistant slides along a French cleat, and can be hung out of the way on the left end of the bench on another piece of cleat. A small cleat on the botom acts as a spacer against the bottom rail to keep it steady.

Cheers, Garrett

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#6

Some bench slave ("dead man") pics

Michael Recchione

> Here's a picture of a Frank Klausz style bench slave.

Here's someone else's interpretation.

I won't post a picture of mine - it really was thrown together in 10 minutes as a prototype and it worked well enough that I never got around to building the "real thing". That seems to happen a lot with stuff I build for the shop ... (sigh).

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#7

Re: Some bench slave ("dead man") pics

ThomD

>I was always meaning to make one like Frank's, or even the kind that one clamps in the tail vise. On a practical basis, it just seems like one more thing to trip over in my shop, and I haven't had any trouble supporting boards on the shop stool, or with clamps.

I would mount the vise into the front of the bench. I have the Lee Valley pattern maker's type vise on one bench, and I use it more than anything else in the shop, but I don't like the fact it sits as far as it does in front of the bench. My other bench has an L vise on it, and I like the integration into the edge of the bench. I think the perfect mounting for the L-vise would be on a pedestal, but I don't have room for that either.

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#8

Thanks to all who responded.

Warren Muse, Earlysville VA

>Excellent ideas here!

Seems like you can't go wrong either way.

I'll post some pics when I get it done.

Thanks again,

Warren

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#9

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

Adam Cherubini

>The flush-mount version would look better but would require the assistant be fitted below the bench top, sliding along the top and bottom strechers.

I'm not crazy about the sliding dead man or free standing assistant design. I agree wih Thom who said its one more thing to trip over.

Here's my vote; Make the vise flush- no question about it- for two reasons:

1) So youu can remove the front jaw when you work moldings or deep grooves with a plow plane

2) Supporting a board from the botom when doing edge work is good. Clamping out any subtle twist to the front face of the bench is better. This provides an important advantage over a power jointer- especially helpful when working wide stock.

So your bench design would have a flush mounted vise and flush legs bored for pegs or holdfasts. Its not good to clamp your board on one side of the vise with sufficient force to hold it when planing anyway. Better to have both ends supported from underneath, freeing the vise (or anything for that matter) to solely provide a stop and maybe against the front edge force.

So what we're describing is the french bench design, which, for a seldom moved piece of equipment, remains unparalleled lo these past 325 years.

For short stock, you can do as I do, throw a nice straight 2x4 on the pegs. The sliding deadman is an unneccessary compromise.

In general, I think its crazy to try to redesign such a successful piece of engineering. My recommendation is to start with the french bench- you can use Chris Schwarz' roubo bench or Dean's as an example, then add whatever vises you feel are neccessary. Just try not to take away the capabiliies of the unadulterated bench with your mods.

That's my two cents anyway.

Adam

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#10

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

Warren Muse, Earlysville VA

>Adam (and Dean),

Thanks for your responses.

I've just spent some time looking over Dean's example (March 9 thread). Certainly beautiful work and well illustrates the concepts you describe.

Thanks again,

Warren

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#11

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

paul womack

>Q: The top is a 2.25" laminated maple, with no skirts, facings or end-caps. There's a 10" Jorgensen front vise and a 7" Columbian end vise.

A: Here's my vote; Make the vise flush- no question about it- for two reasons:

1) So you can remove the front jaw when you work moldings or deep grooves with a plow plane

Er. I'm not sure the Jorgy has a front jaw that can (usefully) be removed.

BugBear

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#12

Re: Or...

paul womack

>In conjunction with the non-flush vise, Wearing describes a simple ficture that mounts on the bench (the gap allows for simple clamping :-) and provides equivlent support to a dead man or bench slave

BugBear

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#13

French bench and general musings

Michael Recchione

>It's funny that if you hang around these forums long enough, you see "truths" go into and out of fashion, pretty much like bell-bottoms and disco music.

One example is what constitutes common knowledge regarding the "ultimate smoothing plane". For a while the revealed and accepted Truth was that everyone serious about woodworking needed at least one infill. Now it seems that the fashion is bevel-up iron planes. I still have neither the infill nor the bevel-up plane, and somehow, miraculously, my wood gets smoothed. Must be elves sneaking into the shop in the middle of the night.

Another example is what constitutes the ultimate workbench. Here the fashion seems to have changed even more quickly than it has for smoothing planes. I've seen fevers for German cabinetmaker's benches, Shaker benches... for a while every new bench had sled feet and a LV twin screw vise on the end and a double row of round dog-holes up the length of the bench. We went from a plane shelf under the bench to full-blown tool cabinets to the current quasi-religious conviction that you shouldn't store anything under the bench. (Right, like I can afford to waste that much space in my little shop...) Skirts got long for a while and the Nicholson bench enjoyed a very short vogue, and then hot-pants came in so now it's the Roubo bench.

I'm likely to build a replacement for my main bench pretty soon, since the top of the one I built originally is self-destructing at one end, and won't take any more flattening without becoming translucent. I've considered a bunch of different options and they all have good points and bad points. The minimalism and simplicity of the Roubo bench is appealing, as is its mass. However, it may not be the universal solution that it's currently touted to be.

It appears to offer a lot of flexibility, but it also appears to be optimized to make it easy to do the same thing many times in a row - almost like a machine. You set it up with your holdfasts and battens and hooks and stops and straight two by fours between the pegs, and then you're set to move lots of pieces of wood into and out of that setup very quickly.

But the setup probably takes longer than it would to do the same thing on, say, a German-style cabinetmaker's bench where the vises and board-jack and dogs are right there in the same place all the time. So if I'm working a bunch of different small, one-of-a-kind pieces, one after the other, the German-style bench probably beats the French. And if the pieces are shaped oddly, a patternmaker's bench beats both of them. And if I need to work up close to my eyes and carve panels, a carving bench beats all the others. And, ..., and, ...

If you tend to make the same kind of thing all the time, there may be an ultimate bench and a best way to do it. If you're like me, your woodworking interests change over the years and you want your bench to adapt to your changing needs. It may be that the kinds of things Wearing talks about, even though they're very non-traditional in ways, actually give you a bench that's an optimal compromise for the home hobby shop.

If I build my new bench within the next year, it might be Rouboesque. But that's only because I've learned that (a) you get used to just about anything, (b) if you have anything long enough, there are going to be things about it that annoy you, and (c) there are many ways to skin a cat. The Roubo bench looks very cool and very "neanderthal" and is simple to make - no fussing with getting a tail vise to work right, simple leg vise, massive enough to stand up to just about anything - all of which which argue for it. But I've had way too much fun with my old bench (which wasn't Rouboesque) to believe that it will make much difference to my woodworking.

The French made nice stuff out of wood. So did the Germans and the English and the Italians and the Japanese and the Chinese... Their benches were all different from one another, and they all worked. To sort of come back to the original question, which was about edge jointing, all of these traditions dealt with it and dealt with it well on their benches. You probably can't go too wrong no matter what you do. And, whatever you do, you'll find things wrong with it eventually, but you'll probably get used to it so you don't even think about it anymore. And, if it's really a pain, you can always make something else.

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#14

What he said ;-)

Dan Donaldson

>The definition of the "ultimate bench" probably varies with the job that you happen to be doing at the time. Maybe the real "ultimeat bench" is to have on for planing on edge, another for planing flat, one for sawing, one for................

Just have a separate one optimized for each operation, probably in differing sizes to suit different sized projects. Of course then you will need a bigger shop to put them in and more cabinets to store the extra tools that you are going to need so that you have them handy at each bench and................

This sounds like a great gig ;-)

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#15

Re: French bench and general musings

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Oh, yes; but I think if someone is beginning woodworking, the best bench is the one that gets up and running real fast so you can get on with it. Then you can diddle and daddle with your second bench.

Pam

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#16

Oh look, the voice of reason...

Alice Frampton, UK

>You probably can't go too wrong no matter what you do. And, whatever you do, you'll find things wrong with it eventually, but you'll probably get used to it so you don't even think about it anymore.

I've long held the belief that you just get used to a bench if you use it enough, and it becomes your ultimate bench with familiarity. Unless you've made a real clunker of course. Why else do all those apprentices/students go away and build benches just like the ones they learnt on?

As for the fashions; it often seems to depend on who wants to talk longest and loudest about what they like at any given time. When they run out of breath, the fashion changes :~)

For the record, an F-clamp holding the work to the front of the bench works fine for me. One of the advantages of having the dog hole section thicker than the area behind it. 'Course I didn't design it that way - no, I did what you can't possibly do if you're to get a bench that suits you. I bought it that way!

On that horrific note... ;~)

Cheers, Alf

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#17

Re: French bench and general musings

ThomD

>Most benches are fairly similar. The arrangement of vises certainly varies. The main issue might be space. After all what is the difference between a Roubo bench and a long Klaus inspired bench? The only problem with vises is if they take away from space that one could do other stuff on. Build a big enough bench or enough benches and you can have the best of both worlds. So are we really discussing the best bench or responding to how cramped are shops are?

Because of Landis' articles and books, a lot of people can recognize a Klaus style bench, and a Frid style bench based on the different style of execution of an essentially similar design. My favorite thing about Klaus' bench is that it is stationed with the working side to his tool wall, so that he doesn't have to reach over the top to access tools, and has 360 degree access to the bench. Now that's luxury.

One of my benches was designed for Western planing on one side and Japanese planing on the other. Might have even worked if it hadn't lived it's whole life, to date, with one side, to the wall.

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#18

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

Warren Muse, Earlysville VA

>The Jorgensen front jaw is secured only by a cotter-pin at the end of one of the slide bars; so it could be done, although not conveniently.

I've really never had a need to do this, but the idea might be useful to somebody.

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#19

Re: French bench and general musings

Warren Muse, Earlysville VA

>Well Pam, I'm not really beginning, but hopefully I'm not ending either!

There will be time, there will be time...

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#20

Re: French bench and general musings

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Hmmm, time huh? One of the things many of us do, and I fight this with myself every day, is to get hung up on finding the perfect tool for a job before starting. This especially applies to work benches. You (impersonal) could delay any action for months and years trying to decide on the perfect bench.

Pam

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#21

Re: French bench and general musings

Adam Cherubini

>I'm not sure I agree with everything my friend Michael has said:

I think its true that it appears the person who talks the loudest or most seems to develop consensus. I think sometimes that's me. But I don't think its true. I think its an illusion. I think its an illusion because I certainly don't see huge changes in behavior. To a large extent, I've been boring many of you with the same arguments for close to 10 years now. So I know all too well precisely what influence I have.

I agree there are fads. But I'm reluctant to suggest an example. In workbench design, I think changes in popular opinion have less to do with arbitrary fads (like bell bottom jeans) and much much more to do with people actually using hand tools to do work. Many of the designs floating around 10 years were severely disadvantaged for edge work for example- or were painfully short . So forget ultimate. These were benches that simply didn't work. They were copies of craftsmen's benches who didn't actually use hand tools.

Bench designs aren't the only things changing. Modern saws are getting better and better. I think its because consumers are getting more and more sophisticated in their usage. Ditto for chisels. I don't think these are fads. My nieces are wearing bell bottoms and halter tops. I don't think we'll see a ressurgence of blue stanley planes, and soft Sorby chisels.

I guess I'd like to say with absolutely no judgement at all, I don't think there are many North Americans, or WC hand tools people who work with hand tools. So we shouldn't be surprised and shouldn't mistake for a fad (BTW, I didn't miss the humor in Michael's post- and I really do agree with it) the metamorphysis of more and more woodworkers using hand tools.

To the point at hand, I'd just like to say this; A&M readers will soon learn my view on "ultimate". Of course Alf and Michael are correct. What motivates me to continue typing is the notion that benches get built that simply can't do this or that adequately. The result is that these benches hold their builders back. Rather than "ultimate" I'm interested in minimums. Benches should allow more than surface planing. They should permit joinery. And since 99.9% of all joinery is cut on machines, mainstream ww benches don't help those of us who actually want to work by hand. I personally find this very frustrating and

I BLAME SCOTT LANDIS! DARN YOU LANDIS! DARN YOU ALL TO HECK!

Charlton Heston

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#22

But...

Michael Recchione

>Adam,

You know I don't even own any machines to do joinery. Or stock prep, or anything except turning (I have a Delta Midi Lathe). I do all my woodworking with hand tools, from start to finish, and never have done it any other way. I use my bench for edge work, face work, joinery, assembly, you name it. So my bench isn't an ornamental bonsai collecting dust in an unused corner of a mostly machine shop - it works hard for a living.

My bench is nobody's idea of eye-candy or soul-candy. It's a variant of the "joiner's bench" from Sam Allen's Making Workbenches , is only 6' long, the top is only 1 1/2" thick laminated maple, strengthened at the front face by a 4x4 stretcher that makes it solid enough for chopping mortises as well as creating a skirt to clamp to, etc. This bench was my first project, and I made tons of mistakes. Yet it's served me well for close to 10 years, and is only up for replacement now because I didn't know about wood movement when I built it. (It probably doesn't help that the shop shares space with both the furnace and the washing machine, so humidity can range from desert to rain forest conditions in the space of an hour.) If the top weren't de-laminating at one end I wouldn't even consider replacing this bench - it does the job for me and has for a good while.

The only thing I would definitely lose is the cheap quick-release vise I mounted as an end vise. It's been useful sometimes, but it's been in the way more often than not. I may try a Roubo style bench, as I said. But I'm keeping my plane shelf under the bench - it's just too convenient to give up. And while I will probably put holes for pegs and holdfasts in the legs, I won't throw out my bench slave - it's easier for shorter stuff than finding that 2x4 to span the front of the bench. And it's smaller - takes up less space.

My face vise is the cheap "large vise hardware" that LV sold 10 years ago. I'm so used to the way it works I could use it in my sleep, and I've never begrudged the little bit of real estate it takes up at the left side of the bench. Would I put in a leg vise on my next bench? Probably - I've had this really neat massive wooden screw and nut I picked up for $10 at a garage sale a number of years ago that I've been wanting to find a use for. But would I make it a practice to dismount it? Probably not. I like having a vise on the left face, I'm used to it, and would miss it if it weren't there. It's all what you get used to.

Finally, remember that the German cabinetmaker's bench and the English joiner's bench and a variety of other designs were used by professional woodworkers to make everything that got made for centuries. They all work. And regarding tiny benches, well, if 4 feet is all you've got, then a 4' bench is better than no bench at all. You probably won't be working 12' pieces of wood on it, but there are plenty of other things you could do that are rewarding and satisfying.

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#23

Re: The Holy Grail of Benches???

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Ahhhh, perhaps it's the bench of 1000 faces?? Polymorphism, anyone??

In "Country Furniture" by Aldren A. Watson there are ink drawings of misc. benches including: French, German (with a small twin screw tail vise), English, and even a 'glueing bench.

What we might consider is designing a modular/convertible bench. What's yer pleasure, mate?? A quick release leg vise that can be converted to a twin screw face vise in less that a minute? A dovetailed crochet that slides on & off? 3 or 4 different tail vises that mount/dismount quickly?

Warning......this concept will be firmly resisted by anyone infected by 'benchyosity'....a firm belief that there exists only ONE true bench and anything diverging from it is to be slathered with copious amounts of ridicule and scorn.

Here's a quote I lifted from an interesting site:(scroll way down to the bottom of the page)

"The old bench which was moved up from the cellar was not good enough for the new shop, so I made a better one by using the iron legs of a sewing-machine and a two-inch plank two feet wide and seven feet long. To this a wooden vise, such as is used by carpenters, was attached. This is really a cheap bench, as the iron legs cost me only fifty cents. It is as rigid and strong as if the frame were of wood, and is heavy enough for any strain that I prob�ably shall ever subject it to. It was not neces�sary, however, to use so wide a plank; one twelve inches wide and two inches thick, for the front of the bench, would have been suffi�cient. The balance of the top might have been made of inch stuff, the top being brought flush with the two-inch plank by putting small blocks under it."

The woodworker quoted above also highly praised his foot powered table saw which took the "drudgery" out of sawing boards. Seems like he was striving to get where we are while we seem to be obsessed by getting back to where he was! ;>)

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#24

Re: French bench and general musings

paul womack

>I BLAME SCOTT LANDIS! DARN YOU LANDIS! DARN YOU ALL TO HECK!

OK. I've heard you say this before. But (at the risk of inviting a rant) what's the problem?

The Workbench Book appears to me (on the basis of repeated reading) to offer a grab bag of workbench solutions, each suited to a particular style or working, and each with pros and cons.

It has separate chapters on some classic bench solutions, and chapters on subjects like workholding, vises, clamps etc. treated separately.

The strong implication appears to be that there is no ultimate bench, and that each worker should choose from the ideas illustrated, suiting their own mode of work.

This seems most eminently reasonable.

So what is the problem with Scott Landis and his Workbench Book, Adam?

I've heard your conclusion, but I'd love to hear your reasons.

BugBear

Re: vise placement / jointing "assistant"

#25

Re: French bench and general musings

Alice Frampton, UK

>This is getting very, very spooky. I'm experiencing some serious de ja vu here. Have we done this before, chaps? Including Frank's quote? Or am I just going quietly insane...?

Anyway, Adam, I hasten to clarify that I was thinking of myself and recent bevel-up missionary zeal as much as anything. It occurred to me that during all the infill era I never said a word, and yet I have just as much of an opinion about that based on just as little experience :~) And you may have more influence than you realise; kinda like water dripping on stone and wearing it away... I keep claiming my acquisition of an axe for Christmas had absolutely nothing to do with your PWW article, but I expect it's entirely delusion on my part. Not a little worrying in fact, given I have no space for another bench and workshop conditions aren't great for wooden planes... ;~)

Cheers, Alf

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.