Dove Tail Chisels, Your Advice Please

Re: Dove Tail Chisels, Your Advice Please *LINK*

L Robins

>Joel sells Nishiki dovetail chisels that are great. You might want to take a look at them.


http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com

Re: Dove Tail Chisels, Your Advice Please

HC Sakman

>Hey Jim, look at the Japan Woodworker site. They have reasonably prices dt chisels.

Chico...

Re: Dove Tail Chisels, Your Advice Please

ThomD

>I wrote a longer response, but it got eaten:

- I prefer japanese bench chisels for DT; the DT chisels are way over ground for just getting in between the tails, and the delicate cutting in the pins isn't helped in the least. Dovetail cuts are power cuts just like mortises, and I prefer a stout bench chisel. Some of the Japanese chisels come "western" ground with all the side taper you need for removing the piece between the saw cuts, which doesn't require the same angle as the saw cut itself. Ask, back in the 80s, this used to make the magazine ads, but these days they either aren't bothering to mention it or have stopped doing it, not sure which.

- Tasai is my favorite expensive brand, and Iyoroi's lower end is very good. White oak is the best handle material, though hard to find over here. I know Hirade, and perhaps Hida cary it.

- The Barr Beckworst chisels are really nice for dovetails, however at the price, you can buy much better Japanese chisels. They have the best western-like design with the best Japanese features thrown in. They are great for demos where people tend to assume you can only cut DTs better than them because you have chisels they can't aford. :0)

Some options.....

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>Hi Jim,

You want a chisel which will go right up to the edge of the socket without dinging the sidewall, right? Look for a dovetail chisel where the sidewalls are very low. Larry Robins has already cited Joel, and he is always a good source, for his advice as much as his wares. Here are a few others which come to mind, grouped into 4 overall options:

1. Strikeable chisels. Tasai makes bench-sized dovetail chisels with striking rings, where the sidewalls are low to zero. I see on Hida's site where Masashige does a similar thing--maybe somebody can offer feedback on Masashige.

2. 14" Paring chisels. Imai white steel (or sword steel) from Misugi Designs. If interested, call Kayoko and tell her you want the sidewalls beveled at 7 to 10 degrees. Otherwise, Imai-san's shinogi slicks will come with standard sidewalls, just as Tasai's shinogi slicks do. However, you may wish to consider Tasai very-thins, which can get into danged near everywhere. These are surprisingly useful, although not beauty contest winners IMO.

3. Detail chisels. Lee Valley sells these, patterned on Yeung Chan's designs. I would also suggest you take a look at Dave Jeske's detail chisels--everything Dave makes is really high-quality, and R.J. Whelan has spoken well of these detail chisels.

4. Roll your own. Take any bench sized chisel or paring slick of your choice and grind the sidewalls yourself.

I use Imai 14" slicks (triangular) with the sidewalls beveled.

Wiley

Re: Some options.....

ThomD

>Willey, sounds like we have the same push chisels! Mine are the cuttingest chisels I have ever owned.

Good advice on grinding your own.

Another way of looking at this is that I don't see too many average woodworkers with a family and a job ever reducing the squared section of the dovetail chisels significantly, but maybe a Japanese pro would. The squared section is as much in the way angle wise as anything else, after all it's just those first few hundredths that cause the problem. But whatcha going to do when the technique is equal strokes on both faces. Either provide the beef or grind away the width.

I think bevel chisels that are ground angled all the way to the back are a better fit for the western way of working. The fishtail chisels might be better still, they seem to me like the only ones that one could happily fit really tight without bruising the sidewalls. I haven't tried those yet.

Something I have tried is regrinding some nice HSS Japanese chisels that I bought from masterpiece tools. I hurts me just to think about it, but they really work great!! This is the way Krenov recomended preparing chisels in one of his books. This isn't a side grind, I think the MT chisels were all ground at 81 degrees anyway, this was a length grind, major brutality. They are much thinner at the edge than the shank end. They dig in like a Badger.

More questions than answers

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Hi Jim

I don't have an answer for you - more like questions, really.

I assume from your choice of the Takahashi dovetail chisels that you strike the chisel and chop your dovetails? Related to this is the query of differences between the Takahashi, which I would consider reasonably expensive chisels (at around $85 each), and the Matsumura, which I have (at about $35 each), and which hold a very good edge. Is there a difference between them that is reflected in their price?

Depending on the hardness of the wood, my preference would be to remove the waste with a jeweller's saw, then pare the remainder. My favourite chisels for working dovetails this way are vintage Bergs. And of these, the ones I turn to are a set of (my custom) rehandled Bergs, which are pushed. They are ground at 20 degrees, compared to the 30 degrees of the Japanese edges. Berg chisels are thin-walled and get in to the angles of the tails very well. I went a step further with the rehandled ones and ground the walls a tad thinner still. Now the Bergs will not hold an edge as long as the Matsumuras, but the latter are far less comfortable to hold for paring and do not have the delicate balance I like when paring. Consequrently, were I considering a Japanese chisel for paring, I would choose one with a long, non-striking handle.

Perhaps someone might comment on the Takahashi vs Matsumuras. I would enjoy hearing also why you (all) chose the "style" of dovetail chisel they use.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Dove Tail Chisels, Your Advice Please

dennis mcdonaugh

>I have a couple dovetail chisels from the Japan Woodworker and they work very well, but I have been trying a fishtail carving chisel lately and it works better becaue the end flares out. I'm thinking of buying a larger one and grinding a skew on it to see how it works.

Re: Dove Tail Chisels, Your Advice Please

Joel

>it will work brilliantly. skew chisels are the norm - ground from regular bench chisels, but I was experimenting with skews and accidently stumbled onto fishtail skews - 1/4" fishtail skews - change my life (as far as dovetailing goes) and they are comparitively very inexpensive as far as chisels go.

Re: More questions than answers - long rambling

ThomD

>Where the cutting of dovetails is concerned (vs the buying of chisels). Anything of reasonable quality works. I avoid chisels that get narrow above the blade or have long blades because I like it to feel like I'm pounding a stake into a vampire rather than playing a musical isntrument. But aside from that the cheap chisels with the see-through handles work great. Jim Cummings, RIP, did a FWW video where he just re-hardened a cheapo in a propane torch. No reason why the result wouldn't be wonderful. Legend has it this category of chisel is made soft so carpenters can sharpen them with a file, which is actually a pretty good idea. I find, even out of the blister pack, they work fine in pine up to about cherry. Hardened they might do everything.

Once one moves out of the "gutter", it's mostly like paying 80 bucks for jeans, fit, personal preference etc... I started with a fabulous three chisel set for 24 buck from Masterpiece tools in about 1979 (well actually I tried the LV brand first, and learned a lot about faux finishing when I returned them...) These chisels were/are superb. But when I moved up from 3 to a bigger set I needed a different brand, there were only 6 total in the set I had stareted. So I bought Ouchii, top of the line, like Tasai today. They were better still, about $400 25 years ago. And so it goes, one works oneself up. I always say I have never spent more for a Japanese tool (except handles and stuff like that) and felt I didn't get a perceptible return. To me it is like Ikea furniture through to what we are shooting for, craftmanship, connection to the needs of the end user, and fingertips show through.

What I think shows through most in the good stuff I have so far been able to aford, is what happens when a lifer blacksmith comits to making tools for a lifer woodworker. It's not just that these guys take this stuff seriously; and that they are descended from swordsmiths in some cases; and that the japanese woodworkers are among the most respected; and that the stones that have taken over world markets come from Japan; and some of the best modern steel; It is all that working together. Barr's chisels for cabinetmakers were improved by working with Berckvoorst. It's a lot deeper in Japan.

If I buy better chisels, I expect to see get something inspirational, and I expect it to cute really well resharpen easily, and work perfectly with the stones. On the downside, I have noticed that some of the current crop of entry level Japanese product has not been good. I didn't like the cheap paring chisel I got from Japan Woodworker. It was brash, and does not work like the tasai. If I knew why I'd be a master smith. I have also seen some junk in the pretty sets recently, so beware. Prices of japanese chisels haven't gone up at all, have fallen in fact since 1980. There was basically no price change through the greenback devaluation. Something has to give.

The highest level of quality is not required to cut dovetails. They can be cut with a piece of re-worked and sharpened rebar. And the experience for the client would not be affected. The experience for the carpenter might.

Small world!

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>You have Imai-san's push chisels also?! I like them a lot for dovetails, and appreciate that Imai will do custom work (like the side bevels) or make custom shapes and sizes--all for his regular prices and on a one-month turnaround. For lots of other paring jobs, I reach for the Funahiro's because there is more hand relief. And I just like em. In fact, I just unreservedly recommend that everyone go out right this second (or to your website of choice) and buy some paring chisels. Do it now. Doesn't have to be Japanese. I see where Lie Nielsen has come out with their version. Plus maybe a couple of mortise chisels from LN or Joel....maybe a 30-inch jointer from Clark & Williams, that'd look good under the tree....then there's.....

Wiley

Questions *LINK*

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>Hi Derek,

I have only heard good things about Matsumura chisels, and this is going several years back.

Your point about style of chisel--striking or paring--is a very good one. I have come to the same conclusion that you have, and prefer to saw the waste out of dovetail sockets. This does change what you want in a 'dovetail chisel', and like you, I use paring chisels after the fret sawing. The link below shows a typical sequence.

Of course for drawer fronts you still have a chopping job to do, unless you glue a veneered front over through dovetails. To get rid of the waste between pins on lapped drawer fronts, I drill the waste with a Forstner bit, then bust out the bulk of the waste in blocks using a mortise chisel, then clean up with paring chisels.

Maybe someone else can help with the Japanese price comparisons.

Wiley


Partial dovetail sequence

Re: Small world!

ThomD

>I'm with you on the paring chisels. Having pared with regular chisels, even large slicks, I wasn't inclined to buy cabinet sized ones. But they are the nearest thing to a brain controled laser cutter I can imagine. I bought mine right off the shelf at Hirade, and therefore had the run of a bunch of sets. So I really found what I wanted, rather than the roulette of mail order.

Re: Some options.....

gordon thomas

>Wiley:

I came a little late to this discussion but wonder what sizes you find most useful in a dovetail chisel. My use is for pairing rather than striking and the application is for small pieces such as jewellery boxes, drawer fronts. My initial thought is that 3/16 to 1/2' should do the trick.

thanks so much,

Gordon Thomas

Chisel sizes

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>Hello Gordon,

Like you, I pare mostly rather than chop. This stems from an initial decision to saw the waste. Of course, there is still some chopping--maybe demolition and excavation are better terms--in the sockets of the drawer fronts.

Anyway, my most used paring slicks for dovetails are 4.5mm and 6mm (~3/16" and ~1/4"), followed by 7.5mm and 9mm. I'll explain how this comes about, so you can compare with your own ways of working, and maybe derive your own widths accordingly. If I'm telling you what you already know, I apologize, but here's the blood and gore....

Most of the time, my pin entries are about 3/32" to 1/8". The slope is in the ballpark of 1:7 to 1:8. The short chisel widths are the ones used to clean the sockets for the pins in the tails board--it usually works out that a 4.5mm or a 6mm will be a close fit in the socket. Talking about 3/4 or 4/4 material for most drawer sides and back, and 5/4 drawer fronts.

The longer chisel widths will be those used to clean the sockets (is this the right term?) in the pins boards which will receive the tails. Here, I don't want the chisel that spans the whole socket. I have better control if I use a 7.5mm or 9mm and make multiple cuts, with less effort applied per cut. More control and less grunt. This works because I use a paring block to position the chisel above the cut. So the multiple cuts do not translate into an uneven scribe line after paring. The paring block also makes it easier to position the chisel--not IN the scribe line--but just a hair outside it.

I use the same paring chisels for detailing the back corners of the sockets in the drawer front. I have tried both skew and fishtail chisels for the purpose--and have them on hand. But usually I just use the one that's already in my hand. If your paring chisels have sidewalls with a slight bevel on them, like about 7 degrees (~1:8 if I recall correctly), you can clean out the pockets in the drawer front just fine with the chisel you already have in your hand, as you complete the paring operation.

Of course, everybody's tool preferences are gonna vary according to all kinds of variables and likes and dislikes, but that's how it works out for me.

Wiley

Re: Chisel sizes

gordon thomas

>Hello Wiley:

Thanks for the detailed resposne. I feel that we are on the same lines when it comes to dovetailing. I did notice that Mr. Imai offers slick chisels in the flat or triangle version. Any thoughts one one style over the other?

thanks again,

Gordon

Flat (usu) versus triangle (shinogi)

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>Gordon,

Some people prefer the flat cross section because it's more comfortable on their finger than the triangle section which makes a crease in you. I never notice this whilst working, but you might.

But remember, the cross-section detail we are talking about only applies to the backing--not to the cutting steel--in most of the chisel offerings. So does the wood know which cross section is being used? Only if the cutting steel is bevelled a little on the sides. Otherwise, you have vertical sidewalls on the cutting steel, and that's what the wood sees. So I have Imai-san bevel mine ~7 degrees, as a custom option. If you don't ask, you get the straight sidewalls. I should quickly add that opinions differ on whether bevelling the sides is necessary, or even desirable. It's just my preference.

The only other push chisel I know of with bevelled sidewalls is the Tasai veri-thin, which by the way is a VERY useful tool. I only have one--a 15mm--but use it a lot because it will go where nothing else goes. And it has a nice balance in the hand.

Wiley

Re: Tasai very thin

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Wiley, I use a larger one of these for general paring, particularly plane making. It's my favorite paring chisel. Also love to hold it, look at it. When I get back to making furniture, plan to get a couple more for dovetails and the like.

Pam

You gotta show us

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>some build pictures of your new timbered workshop! Are you working hard trying to beat the rainy season?

Wiley

With triangle (shinogi) chisels...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond,CA

>It's east to file a flat on top of them to cease the crease.

Re: You gotta show us

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Was working hard until I threw my back out last weekend moving a bunch of construction materials under cover (one of those portable garages). Right now I'm sitting here waiting for my 4:00 PM doctor's appointment. :)

As to rain, I don't know that we'll get any, it's been a very dry year.

Pam

PS I thought your statement about shinoji being formed only with the soft iron was quite profound.

Re: Flat (usu) versus triangle (shinogi)

gordon thomas

>hello Wiley:

is there a difference between the tasai thin and VERY thin chisel. Also, do you have a link that i could take a lok at, please?

thanks again,

Gordon

Re: Flat (usu) versus triangle (shinogi) *LINK*

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>Gordon,

Attached is a link to Tasai-san's push chisels, at the Hiraide America site (Harrelson Stanley). The photos show both the plan view and the side profile, so you can see the thickness differences.

I have two Tasai push chisels, a standard shinogi (top of the page) and a very-thin. The very-thin has the cutting steel beveled all the way to the back; the standard shinogi has vertical side walls on the cutting steel.

Needless to say, all Tasai chisels are top notch.

Wiley


Tasai push chisels

Re: Flat (usu) versus triangle (shinogi)

ThomD

>I do hold the blades, but try not to. I don't think one is expected to, for what that is worth. The triangle push chisels I have are all "melted", so there aren't any nasty edges.

What is meant by side bevels? I think there are lots of makers who bevel the part that is next to the backs.

Re: Flat (usu) versus triangle (shinogi)

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>Hi Thom,

I agree with you about not holding the blades--I don't either except to position the blade to begin the cut. I mentioned it to Gordon because he asked, and I remembered that I had someone tell me it was their reason for buying usu.

When I said 'side bevel', I meant a slight bevel on the hard steel, down to the back. In these recent Japanese chisel threads, I have mentioned the ones that I personally know about who do this--Imai (as a custom order), Tasai oire dovetails, Tasai very-thin push chisels, and a maker named Masashige that Hida Tool carries, in his oire dovetails. I have a standard Tasai shinogi slick that is not bevelled in that way, and a couple of Funahiro slicks (great tools by the way) that also are not beveled in the hard steel. Perhaps you can add others, or straighten my list out. I'm reporting only what I'm personally familiar with, and there are several other Japanese smiths selling chisels through commercial outlets in No. America and Europe/UK, some of whom may offer this feature on a custom or standard basis.

I always like reading of your opinions and experience, and would love to have some help answering these questions that have come up! Same with Pam, and others who use Japanese tools.

My main hope is that perhaps there will be some additional interest generated in paring chisels, whether Japanese, Lie Nielsen, or vintage western. At this point, paring chisels and mortise chisels are what I am using (sometimes a crankneck), but rarely bench chisels. Yet bench chisels are what all of us start with--why is that? Because they kinda do everything?

Wiley