Question for metal heads

Re: Question for metal heads

Todd Hughes

>I think a couple pretty good edge tools have been made in the past by forging them to shape, eh?...You didn't say if your blanks have been hardened and tempered already, if so they will need to be anealed , hardened and tempered again after you forge them to shape ....Todd

Minor metal head response...

Steve Kubien

>Hi Jorge,

I just got finished shaping a blade for a travisher from 01. I annealled it first, removed the bulk of metal with a hacksaw, refined it on a bench grinder and dremel. No real problems. I figure the process will speed up once I've done it a few times.

Are you sure you are working with annealled steel?

Steve Kubien

Re: Question for metal heads

ThomD

>You can absolutely forge O1 tool steel, I think that is mostly what Barr uses for his woodworking tools, not to mention many knifemaker who forge their blades.

The process you would need to perform after forging, is "normalising". This process is similar to anealing, except it often requires taking the steel in question to a heat above the transformation range, which is higher than anealing, in many case. Anealing simply removes all hardness, normalising resolves the stresses of forging, stanping etc... Then one to HTing.

Re: grinding

ThomD

>If you can get yourself a 1x42 sander (very cheap these days. Sometimes see them for less than a new wheel for my grinder) and a blue belt like Norton sells (LV has some as does Pop's". It will really speed up your grinding.

In the unlikely event you are planing on doing lots of this, get a 2x72, and a Big HP motor!

Re: grinding

ThomD

>Also, I wear heavy welding gloves, and bear down on the grind. You do have to baby the "glass" grinding wheels, you don't have to baby the steel, or a belt grinder. My grinder cuts so fast it won't turn the steel blue, but it will turn it yellow. Doesn't mater, You can't harden the steel at yellow or blue, and you are heatreating the steel later anyway. Sadly I only have a 1.5 HP motor, If I had more power I could really move the metal.

Very similar to woodturning, except: You get fire not water; you are reducing the tool not the spinning bit; and you can never have a big enough machine! :0)

Re: Question for metal heads

Jorge Castaneda

>Hi Todd,

The blanks are drill rod, so they are soft. Glad to hear they will be OK.

I value your opinion, Gracias!

Take care

Jorge

Re: Minor metal head response...

Jorge Castaneda

>Hi Steve,

I am working with drill rod, so it is soft, it is just a lot of metal has to be removed. I am making several, so I'll get better as it goes, I'll try the hacksaw too, did not think of that.Gracias!

Jorge

Re: Question for metal heads

Jorge Castaneda

>Thom,

I am glad I asked, I just learned something new. What would be color of the metal to be at normalizing temperature?

Gracias!

Jorge

Re: grinding

Jorge Castaneda

>Thom,

I am making a few, not too many, and I did not think of the belt sander, I have a 4"x24" and it has a stand, so I will try that with a coarse grit, I think I have a 36 grit belt.

Thank you very much!

Jorge

Re: grinding

ThomD

>I would try the 36 grit first. And you can even try something like 60 if you have that. Sometimes more grit just tears more metal away, or is closer to HP, not sure.

To state the obvious, be sure to clear away accumulated sawdust on your sander before attempting your cuts.

Re: grinding

Jorge Castaneda

>I will Thom,

Thanks!

Re: Question for metal heads

ThomD

>I don't use colour cause I do almost all of my HT outside so as not to burn my woodshop down, and I can't see the colour. Also I built a propane forge and lined it with ITC 100, which is hard on the eyes.

I'd take this in two steps. If the stock removal works for you and you don't forge, then just proceed to heat treating without normalizing. Some knife makers normalize even stock removal, but one problem with most knives is that their shape is their appeal, so you can't just grind back the edge to the good steel as you can with a chisel. I wouldn't bother normalizing most woodworking tools, or even most knives, unless forged.

But if you do forge, you need to normalize. This is where it get's iffy. I couldn't find official info on the normalizing temp of O1. I did find a lot of people talking about how they cycled their O1 through several normalizing cycles after having "gone to non-magnetic". This is consistant with not having normalized since non-magnetic can be quite a bit below the actual normalizing temp. You probably need to go 100 degree above magnetic for normalizing, and 50 degrees above magnetic (point where the magnet no longer sticks for either anealing or hardening).

When normalizing you let the steel cool to room temp by room temperature air cooling. With anealing you need to let it cool say over night in a pile of ash, vermiculit, or perlite.

What I do for hardening is pull the piece from the flame periodically. I test it with a magnet for non-magnetic, and when the magnet no longer attracts the steel, I give it another soak just to nudge it very slightly, might be 15 seconds, I am loking for the first sign of any slightly greater heat than non-M. That could be the slightest colour change or sense of energy, an elapse of time. Then you quench. You can tell when you get it if when you quench the steel if it skates a sharp file. It needs to skate the file in bright steel, often the black surface is soft.

O1 is designed so anybody with vice grips and a torch can handle the heat treating with pretty amazing results.

Much obligated

Jorge Castaneda

>Thom,

You have given me quite a lot in these post, greatly appreciated.

I am a very low tech, and so I work until dark or at least dusk to fire the torch and heat the metal, I work outdoors in a small space surrounded by firebricks so I don't burn my shop and have a very good chance to work by the colors, I just hardened the blank I preped with the grinder, and the file skates, so I am pleased; while I was waiting for dark I did use the hack saw and a bastard and pretty much got 2 other blanks almost ready to harden.

I owe you one

Gracias!

Jorge

Re: To the rescue of LV plane

ThomD

>Great news. Good for you. Adictive isn't it?

If I make a little spindle on my lathe, great, maybe somebody wants it. I spend the same time making myself a chisel, I save ME 50 bucks directly in the pocket. I can't get enough of that deal.

Lower down I was teasing that I have all these LV tools I don't really use as much as they deserve. I posted a picture of the tools. One of them was a rebate plane that is supposed to use a chisel for it's blade. Works great. Only thing is that it would get used more use if it had it's own blade. So tonight as I was putting it away, I'm thinking I can take care of that in less than 20 minutes. Stop the complaining! It's on the list for tommorow.

Up above I was asking about whether they make breakers for the LV smoother I don't use. Hey maybe I would use it more with a big fat O1 blade without a breaker and a bunch of holes for the adjuster to fit into. I just thought of that now. Maybe I should make a toothing blade to go with it, I could use one of those. I'll need to dig out a checkering file first.

Then maybe I should make an O1 blade for the LV block plane, and for the BU jointer.

So little time.

Re: Question for metal heads

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I'll bet you're making one or more of those three point bead turning tools.

Re: Question for metal heads

ThomD

>Could be. That is such a fast grind, I just grind the back ends of bowl gouges, you can go as over the top as you want. Can't harm HSS grinding it, Not without melting it in your hands. :0)

Nope!

Jorge Castaneda

>William,

what I am working on is a hook, I saw a demo by Alan Lacer and he makes the inside of a bowl with it and leaves a perfect surface, no 80 grit gouge there. It is an ancient tool deviced by the viking over one thousand years ago to work on end grain softwood, but I saw Alan work on hardwood just as well. If you look at it right next to a gouge, it is the same profile rotated 90 degrees, so you can get into places that you cannot with the regular configuration.

Thom,

you are right, this stuff is kind of addictive, I woke up thinking other tools that have been in the backburner for a while and with the new found avenue, I feel like a promenade is coming...

Thanks!

Jorge

Re: Nope!

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Aha. That's why you needed to anneal it. If you put a mouth in front of the edge, to control the depth of cut, you'd have one of those termite things.

Drill rod

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>I have noticed that the drill rod I work with is pretty hard and will chew up a grinder wheel. Perhaps you should anneal it before working.