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FWW's Review of Plane Kits

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FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#1

FWW's Review of Plane Kits

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>Got my mag today and looked at the dueling plane kits article. The Shepherd Tools Spiers #7 was put together by the author in 40 hours rather than the 8 to 10 hour limit the company guestimates. I looked closely at the picture and the dovetails had large gaps between the brass and steel which reminds me of my hand-cut dovetails in wood. Those of you who have put one of these together; Is this the norm or did the author not really have his heart in it? The St. James Bay plane reviewer made no comment on time for build. This article didn't seem very informative nor did the authors coordinate their comments well. I remembered Chris Schwartz's article on building a kit as having more meat in it.

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#2

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>"The Shepherd Tools Spiers #7 was put together by the author in 40 hours rather than the 8 to 10 hour limit the company guestimates....dovetails had large gaps between the brass and steel ....Those of you who have put one of these together; Is this the norm or did the author not really have his heart in it?"

First off, I hate metal working. I can do it, but I hate it. Yah, it took me way longer than 8 hours to complete the Shepherd that I built, probably in excess of 40 hours. But if you are more proficient with metal working, your time might be less. And if you don't mind metal working, then who cares how long it takes--my advice is to take all the time it requires, enjoy the process, customize the plane a little so its yours, and make something you will be very proud of. Mine was all steel, and by following the instructions, I had only one small area where I had a gap, and if I had been more careful, I wouldn't have had any. FWIW, the one I built performed everybit as well as the ones assembled at Shepherd.

"The St. James Bay plane reviewer made no comment on time for build."

I haven't seen the article, but I suspect this is the very plane the FWW editor brought with him when he came out for the photo shoot. It was a very heavy (though not as heavy as my SMT) and very nicely built plane, except for a mouth that was way too open. I would have found it a delightful plane to own, if only to look at, though even after I worked on the blade and shimmed below the blade to close down the mouth, my $49 Mujingfang outperformed it on Cocobolo.

"This article didn't seem very informative nor did the authors coordinate their comments well. I remembered Chris Schwartz's article on building a kit as having more meat in it."

Well, that probably is more than anything a testimony to the great articles Chris writes.

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#3

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>Thanks for your take on it Lynn. I went and reread the article again and perhaps I was too hasty on my initial comments. The authors did slip more "meat" into it than I first perceived. It seems that a lot of the appeal of the kits approach is that one gets a very nice tool that is put together by the owner. The process and the result evoke a sense of pride, worth and accomplishment. I seem to remember getting more of that feel from Chris's article. You're right, he does seem to have gotten the hang of writing woodworking articles. Maybe somebody should make him an editor or something.

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#4

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

ThomD

>If we are talking gaps in the dovetails, they get peened closed, so unless there was a pre-existing problem, it a problem of not enough wacking, or in the right direction.

Anyone remember the good old days when FWW published articles on how to make these planes from scratch?

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#5

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

paul womack

>The process and the result evoke a sense of pride, worth and accomplishment. I seem to remember getting more of that feel from Chris's article.

Bearing this in mind (and I consider it important, and appealing) perhaps Shepherd might have the courage of their convictions and quote assembly times for a "typical woodworker", as opposed to a typical engineer?

BugBear

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#6

Jack Guzman from Maine

side bar

Jack Guzman from Maine

>Where can I find Chris Schwarz's article on building an infill?---Jack

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#7

Shepherd Smoother

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>Hi,

I built the Shepherd smoother a number of years ago...it took me 12 hours, metal work included. It was my first time making a plane as well. I did have the advantage of having Ben abd Doug near by so I went to their shop and built it there. In my mind, even with out the words of assistance, 40 hours sounds extreme to me unless they were making mistakes.

I had some slight gaps in the metal when I made mine, not huge, and of course repairable.

Take care,

Jim

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#8

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

CJ McLaughlin

>Now, I don't have the article in front of me, but it seemed to me that the author of the Shepard article was using a tiny piening hammer. That itself could add some time to the project. Of course, his misses won't be as damaging as some of the ones I've made.

Perhaps I'm building on misperception, but I feel that it would be easy to take as long as 40 hours, depending on how tentatively one approaches the project.

CJ

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#9

Re: Times Etc.

Doug Evans

>This is a bit of a can of worms but, I will make one stab at it and leave you guys to chew on it...

Firstly, I do believe that there are people who spend 40-hours plus on a plane.

Certainly my perspective is largely influenced by our own internal times and the guided environments of our "build sessions". The speed we have, is the speed of knowing how to use the parts themselves as "story sticks" for building impromptu "buck blocks" from an oak skid lying out behind our shop in twenty minutes; knowing each step of the way and reacting to the individual way each piece is progressing; having the right equipment; moving the buck block with the left hand mid-swing and adjusting the right hand hammer strike without losing cadence; knowing what can go wrong; having the forearm strength to get through a plane and knowing when to stop for a bit before the tired muscles become inaccurate and you put a dent in the wrong surface... and on... and on...

Then there are the vagaries of the audience... This gets down to experience (not necessarily metalwork) and confidence. Some folks will spend well over six hours on the instructions. Some will measure all of the parts with machinist-level tools. Some after an hour or so of study, will tell you how you that the parts dont fit, not realizing that you built in tolerances for the fact that everything moves right up until the end. Some will use Jewellers Rouge and put a mirror finish on parts that will have 0.020" sanded or draw-filed off them before the process is finished. Some folks, as Matt Berger of FWW did, will draw-file and lap the metal surfaces flat. On large planes, a large sander with a zirc belt can take as much as 16 hours out of this job! Then there's folks that look at the back page diagrams and start twenty minutes in!

Ben and I have watched well over 100 bench planes being built in "Build Sessions." In the large majority of cases, we have the folks at the stage of glue up (wood glued into rough-sanded dovetailed shells) in about 5 hours. This could actually be less because we are quite long-winded in our morning overhead presentation. A number of people on this forum have seen Sam Simpson in one of these sessions build a shoulder in about 5 or 6 hours. A number in Washington, watched Doug Reynolds get into his third plane by the end of a Saturday. These guys scare me!

Although I have said that a power sander is helpful, some people can get carried away and wipe a sidewall off (mind you this typically takes hands that can withstand abnormal heats and a considerable time). Although the sander is quick, I can recall draw-filing the majority of a shoulder plane in about two hours at an outdoor build (a job that would have taken about 1/2 hour on a sander to the same level). At a build session at Phil Lowes, there were no sanders and the builders were about three times the time drawfiling, that it nomally would have taken.

If there was an issue with the dovetails in the FWW article, I think one source could be seen in the photos themselves. The hammer looked somewhat light. My hammer would have had it for a light snack. You dont want to be too heavy which can distort the shell during peining however, you need to have good penetration.

I talked about confidence (too much and too little) and experience. Some folks have good spatial ability - perhaps about 15% of the population at best. When you talk about compound dovetails, they are with you about five minutes into the conversation - their jargon in describing the geometry themselves tells you they know. The majority though do not - I am not being elitist here - it's not generally a natural ability - it's learned. Some folks will take the instructions and follow the cookbook (labelling parts inside and out, build the guide blocks, etc.). Others have an absolute need to understand it all before they start - it's been that way all their lives... nothing wrong with that... but if they havent lived in the world of "in-car-position" and "blends" etc. it may take awhile. The guys who go through the cookbook are probably ahead in the end. A lot is learned by doing and even after doing (looking back at the dovetails of a brass plane afterwards). Having taken the first step, the lightbulb goes on for one while the other is still waiting to take that tepid step.

It has been a long time since we have revised instructions - there are a lot of new methods and tips to add. In truth, I will likely adjust the smoother times however, it is not very likely I would move them to anything near fourty. There are videos on our site of the processes. If you havent had a chance, take a look.

Hope this helps,

Doug

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#10

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

Dave Anderson Chester,NH

>I've built 2 of the Shepherd planes, the #7 Spiers smoother and a chariot plane. The smoother was mostly built at Shepherd during the Neander Meander 3 or 4 years ago. Including the time I spent at home shaping the wooden infills to my personal preference and and the time anally polishing the sole, sidewalls, and everything else, I probably have 30-40 hours in the plane. If I hadn't been quite so fussy, it could have been done in 20. The chariot took me significantly less time at home and again it could have been completed more quickly if I hadn't polished everything. My point is that a functional plane can be made is 20 hours or less, but the extra time spent personalizing and spiffing things up is well spent and will add great satisfaction to your final result. Just like making a piece of furniture, it is counterproductive to rush through the thing and cut corners along the way.

As for the FWW results on the Shepherd, that's a reflection on the builder, not on the kit itself. Personally, I'd be embarrassed to build something like that and then have the pictures published in a magazine. Just my opinion.

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#12

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

ThomD

>Since it takes about 2-3 hours to make a wood plane from scratch, including a blade, using standard tools and a 1x42 sander, it's hard to see where the extra 38 hours were spent in manufacturing what is essentially a piece of channel. I think in 38 hours I could build a foundry and cast the base out of solid bronze, seriously. So why peaning a few dovetails and cleaning them up would take that length of time I don't know.

I actually prefer it if they tell me how long it takes a competant person to do a task, because the baseline for incompetance stretches out into years, and is largely meaningless. I know from personal experience and misadventures over the years.

The St James Bay kits are a mater of a few hours if you get the milled ones. I haven't figured out how to do the rough castings by hand yet, and feel my belly is showing a little.

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#13

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

ThomD

>I read Chris' article and learned the DT's are laser cut not milled, so hand filing would add some time, maybe an hour or two. One thing I noticed in Chris' excellent treatment was that he seemed to be a one file band. A few extra files like a magicut and a mill file, as well as the mill bastard, would speed things up. As might files for the respective metals. It might also be posible to do some roughing with a Dremel with a cut-off disc, those things are incredible! Or even some roughing on the 1x42, or 1x36.

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#14

Agree...

Brad in Ottawa

>Dave,

Couldn't agree with you more regarding having that pictured in a magazine.

My build didn't take anywhere near as long as yours. But then again I still would like to find the time one day to polish the metal off to a nice finish.

If I remember right your smoother was quite the looker!

Brad

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#15

Re: time

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>Sometime in the next year I plan on spending the $500 for the Norris A6 smoother kit with brass sides that I want. This is a lot of money for me to spend on soemthing I don't need. I spend about $1200 per year on car insurance, and do so without blinking an eye; I need it. But to spend a week's wages on something you don't need is a different story.

Once I have the plane, you can bet I am not going to see how fast I can put it together. I am going to see how well I can put it together, and I am going to have fun doing it. I am not sure why I would punch a clock so I can tell people how long it took; I don't care much for time clocks.

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#16

Re: time

ThomD

>Exactly have fun with it.

I do think we have this mentality though where we assume fast equates sloppy. Maybe this comes from industrial history which is sometimes a history of cheapening shortcuts. When I was a kid I used to tie flies for pocket money. I soon figured out it was a shorter distance to put the thread on the fly like it was wound by a machine than to zig zag it back and forth with crossing wraps. It also created greater PSI retaining materials, and had greater surface area in contact with the materials. It seemed like every shortcut I could work out made for better flies, faster ties, and more money. Well I had to think about something, piece work is boring otherwise. :0)

When I took up woodturning I learned that often medium deep cuts starting with the shape in mind from the beginning, powered away a lot of wood, and gave me better control than nibbling away on the surface.

Take Dave's point that a heavier hammer might do better work, faster. I don't see that we have to assume speed and poor work are fellow travelers.

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#17

Steve Kubien

Re: time

Steve Kubien

>Enjoy it Moses. I really enjoyed making my shoulder plane. It is certainly a different mindset than working wood. Also, in FULL agreement with what was said above, errant hammer blows during the peening will really slow you down during the finishing stages. DAMHIKT.

Take your time, do a good job and enjoy.

Kindest regards,

Steve Kubien

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#18

If at first you don't succeed....

James Watriss

>...get a bigger hammer.

I noticed that in the picture, too... Compared to the hammer in teh online videos on the shepherd site, that thing was probably about 1/3 the proper size.

It's like chopping wood... if the axe head isn't big enough, it won't hit hard enough, won't make the cut, and you'll break the handle trying to get the job done. No wonder he had gaps.

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#19

So...

Frank D. in Montreal

>So what would be the proper size? I have a 3 lb., would that be too heavy?

Thanks

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#20

My "kit" has been taking 6 yrs & counting...;-)

HC Sakman

>

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#21

Reporting to OZ

Jorge Castaneda

>Chico,

I cannot believe what I just read... Sorry have to report: )

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#22

Re: Agree... *LINK*

Mike Swindell

>I took a build class for a chariot plane at a local college and was less than impressed. Mine had the brass sides, it it was very easy to dip the file and not obtain a square bottom or sides to the dovetail. The bench set up was far from satisfactory, low bench and high stools. At home this would have been alot different. The front bun needs a serious redesign, the bottom hole has less than 1/8" wall thickness and mine was destroyed in the drilling process. Ben volunteered to finish the plane, which I thought was nice - only took 3 months and all the peening was already finished by myself. After that I decided to make my own woodies. These have an infill type handle and adjustable mouth. They still need a little fine tuning mainly the front block gets jammed with shavings. I also made a jack and a razee jointer which will have 1/4 " blades. Infils are cool but for the same performance I'll keep my woodies.


http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/maswindell/detail?.dir=3098&.dnm=28d3.jpg&.src=ph

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#23

Re: St James Kit

Barryvabeach

>Patrick. in the FWW articles, the author got the milled St James kit - if you check the site you will see the milled kits are much more expensive than the rough castings because most of the rough metal work is done before you get it. I got the rough casting for the panel plane and used mostly files to get that in shape- the process took about 6 months ( though I didn't work non stop). I more recently bought the machined casting kit for the smoother and literally had it ready to plane in short order - measured in hours rather than months -using poplar wood for the bun and handle. I ended up taking probably 4 - 6 weeks before I decided on final shapes for the front bun and rear handle and completed those in cocobolo. Most of the work on the machined kit is wood work and much of the time is in making sample handles making sure you end up with something you like - thickness of handle, angle. While the lack of instructions is pretty ridiculous, as the author mentioned, the owner of St James is helpful and after reviewing some info on the net, I had the info needed to complete it. Somewhere I still have the old tools email archive on building a smoother from rough castings - if you decide on St James let me know and I will see if I can dig it up.

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#24

Re: St James Kit

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>St. James Bay also sells the three issues of Home Shop Machinist wherein Stephen Thomas describes and provides detailed drawings of how he built his first adjustable mouth infill smoother from a SJBTC casting. That can help out a lot, even if you don't want to take the extra time to put a mouth plate in yours.

Re: FWW's Review of Plane Kits

#25

Temptetions are all over the place...

HC Sakman

>Hi Jorge!

Yea, it's been that long, perhaps more than 6 years. It's easier to buy and use ready to go LN & LV planes..though my plane will come to life soon. Actually I am anticipating to work on it over the x-mas holiday.

Nice to hear from you.

Chico...

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