cutting tenons by hand

Re: TLN bad news

Paul in NJ

>Adam,

Would you explain what makes a decent tenon saw? Inquiring minds want to know. Would a miter saw of sufficient length and depth of blade make a decent tenon saw?

Paul

Re: Zen and the art of sawing

Dale Stansbery

>That handy tip was passed on to the class by my industrial arts teacher some time back around the beginning of time, just after the big bang I think. Geez it's been a long time.

Re: Zen and the art of sawing

John Hoffman

>Adam is there a use for marking a tennon with a two pronged mortising gauge? When I used it for both the mortis and the tennon before cutting and had a hell of a time because the knifes followed the grain of the wood.

So, I am back to using a awl end of the marking knife or a pencil.

JH

Adam, I'm real confused...

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>If LN does not make a Tenon Saw then what is this?

Lie-Nielsen Toolworks USA | Tenon Saws

Or are you referring to LN making a Bowsaw for cutting tenons?

Something like one on this page?

ECE Bow saws

In any case, (Not to sound controntational)I would have to take exception with the assertion that LN would not be able to make a fine saw (or by extension, some other tool) since Stanley did not make that tool.

LN already makes some nice tools that were. to my knowledge, never made by Stanley, or more importantly and more correctly, that were based on designs from companies besides Stanley.

Three examples come to mind quite quickly:

1) the Rabbet block plane (based on the Sargent 507)

2) the butt mortise plane (based on a rumboldt design...there are one or two on ebay at any given moment)

3) Any of their hand saws which are all based on Disston designs.

Also, LN produces at least one tool that seems to be its own design, namely their LA Jointer (7 1/2).

So to assert that they lack the ability to make such a tool since Stanley did not make one does not hold with the facts.

:)

Now the question, to me, becomes, can they produce a bowsaw that meets their standards of quality that can be produced reasonably?

That's a tough one...just like I wonder about the Panel saw and whether we will see one from LN anytime soon.

Re: TLN bad news

Adam Cherubini

>I think you have to go back to the tenon saws of the 18th century to find a decent one. So we're talking about an 18" long blade with a 3-4" depth, and maybe 9tpi rip, possibly progressive pitch, and I'd file a progressively decreasing rake. The handle should be square with the blade and slung low behind the heel, more like a rip saw (which it is) than a miter saw.

A miter saw like your's is the best we can do. Saws like the one I described were among the first back saws made and remained the only back saw people owned for decades. Somehow, and for no good reason IMHO, saws like these fell from favor as the guilds slipped into the abyss. My guess is that tenons were among the first mechanized joints.

I'm really not interested in slinging mud TLN's way, but I'm not going to hold my breath for this saw.

Adam

Re: Adam, I'm real confused...

Adam Cherubini

>If LN does not make a Tenon Saw then what is this?

Hi Chris,

You tell me! Nothing about this saw makes it particularly suited to sawing tenons. Not its pitch or length or blade depth. So you tell me what this is or what its good for? Small, very small tenons?

That manuafacturers name a tool a "low angle rabbet plane" or a "dovetail saw" doesn't mean those tools actually work for those functions. Tell me again what the benefit of a low angle jack plane is again? Or a jack plane with a bedrock frog?

Don't mean to be argumentative. I think modern tool makers would do well to look back a bit further at hand tools, then probe what is and is not available. I've said it before and I know you guys think I'm crazy, but the wooden plane design is really, really good. You really could make new wooden planes with plastic bodies and they'd be easy to make and great to use. If I had the machine capabilities of LN or LV, that's exactly what I'd do. I'd try to reproduce the Seaton chest with plastic bodied planes in bright colors, then I'd ship as many as possible to schools.

If you are going to make a tenon saw, you're nuts not to copy the saw in the seaton chest. Will anyone do that? My guess is no.

adam

Re: TLN bad news

Paul Kierstead

>Well, I haven't tried theirs, but it is a 14" blade, 10 tpi rip and a little over 3 1/2" deep, not *that* far off your spec in basic terms. The grind is probably straightforward, but there rarely seems to be two people with the same idea of grind.

Re: TLN bad news

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Hi Adam,

SOunds like you have never tried the LN tenon saw so I think you ar ebeing a wee bit harsh assuming it won't cut well. I haven't tried the LN either so can't commment on it but my Sorby brass backed saw set and sharpened by TOm Law at 10TPI, Rip and 14" long works perfectly fine. Is the LN better? I don't know but an 18" saw may have not made it into the 19th century cause it is too long for most people when cutting tenons.

Cheers

Dan Clermont

Re: did you get a lot of exercise hand resawing?

ThomD

>Not as much as I would have liked. I made a frame saw to hold the largest bowdsaw rip blade I could find, and I used that. Stearing was a problem, and it seemed a crisis prone method. Eventually I broke up the frame saw just for space, and I recently cut short the blade for my 12" bowsaw, to use in joinery, which gives an idea of how undersized it was.

I always figure one might as well do as much hand work as possible and save on the gym memberships, but the reality is that it can't compare to riding my touring pedal bike a thousand miles. Somewhere fairly early on I end up looking for something I put down in the shop, can't find it, and before you know it I'm sipping a cup of coffee somewhere comfortable. Try that halfway between "here" and "there" on a bike tour! I know of a guy who has a pedal powered bandsaw! That might work!

Re: Zen and the art of sawing

ThomD

>"I think, is that it's really hard to mess up planing, and people who sell stuff do their best to convince you that you can just throw money at the planing problem to solve it"

I think this is somewhat true of the smoother as the height of the art crowd. It is pretty easy to take a few thou off a perfectly level surface. And you can buy a pretty decent smoothing place for 6 grand. It is entirely a different mater to try to covert all over the place stock into four square. Not all that difficult, but it starts to approximate the rules of gramar when you try to lay down all the contingencies.

Of course planing relies on sharpening, and even the masters can't seem to get on top of that.

Re: TLN bad news

Paul in NJ

>Adam,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, it makes sense to me. After reading your reply I had to run out to my shop and check out all my vintage Disston saws. All my saws are late 19th and early 20th century. My rip saws have the most vertical handles, just slightly more than my cross cut saws. All my back saws have more rake to the handles with the shortest saws having the most rake. I have a couple progressive pitch rip saws but none of them have progressive rake of the teeth. When I get some time I am going to try filing a saw this way as you have my curiosity piqued.

Paul Dzioba

P.S. In regards to our earlier discussion I compared the rake angle and height of the handle above the teeth on my #'s 12, 16, and D8 saws. They are of the same vintage and have about the same amount of wear. They were pretty consistent except in how far they set back from the back of the blade.

Re: TLN bad news

paul womack

> But I think 99% of woodworkers simply don't know what a tenon saw is or how it works.

Are you talking about a saw for cutting tenon cheeks (and if so, on what scale), cutting tenon shoulders (and ditto), or a hybrid capable of cutting both?

BugBear

Re: Zen and the art of sawing

paul womack

>Adam is there a use for marking a tennon with a two pronged mortising gauge? When I used it for both the mortis and the tennon before cutting and had a hell of a time because the knifes followed the grain of the wood.

(I assume you meant points)

In most cases when marking, it's better to make 2-3 passes, especially when using a gauge with a point (as opposed to disc or knife).

When marking a line there's always a wrestling match between the gauge face registering on the workpice and the pin registering in the grain.

By making multiple light passes, the gauge face will win. Vary this approach according to the grain and hardness of the wood - your experience will increase rapidly. When in doubt - go easy.

BugBear (quoting and expanding on Kingshott inter alia)