cutting tenons by hand

Re: cutting tenons by hand

George Makowski

>Frank, I am not the most experienced of the posters on this board by the longest stretch of imagination and, errorum humanum est, I am certainly wrong at times.

Here is my take on your tenon problem. Slow down. Practice. Watch. Saw and saw and saw. See below about Roy Underhill cutting tenons with a coarse cross cut saw. The arts and mysteries are arts and mysteries because you do an apprenticeship, formal or personal, to achieve knowledge of them one cut at a time. If you can saw well enough to do the dovetails you have shown us, you will be able to make your tenons as well. Soon you will amaze us and yourself.

Cut on the waste side!

George in AL

Re: cutting tenons by hand

frank shic

>argh... george, ok... i'll keep trying! thanks for the encouragement! roy underhill uses a CROSSCUT saw?!? it's probably a 7-8 tpi 2 foot long saw, isn't it?

Re: cutting tenons by hand

Jack Guzman from Maine

>Don't give up.I was where you are now not too long ago. I got the hang of it and now I'm happy with the fit of my tenons.I mark out the tenon with my mortise gauge along both sides and across the end.Then I place the piece in my vise with the end up.I start at the corner and cut across the end and side at the same time,turn the piece over and finish the other side.Then I lay the piece on it's side and saw the shoulders.Now I mark out the width by laying it over the mortise for reference,and make these cuts the same way.Final fit is usually minor shaving with a chisel and/or a shoulder plane. I'm new at this but this works for me.---Jack

Re: cutting tenons by hand

Bob Fawcett

>I am no expert either. I can't remember where I read this, but it works for me. Take your sharp chisel and on the waste side of your marking gauge cut, cut a small notch by placing the chisel about 1/32" away from the line and paring to the cutting gauge line. You should end up with "wider line". One side will be the cutting gauge line and is vertical. The other side is the start of your chisel cut and slants toward the cutting gauge line by about 20 degrees. Now start your saw in this line. The saw cut should be just to waste side of you line.

Maybe a little ascii art.

\|

This is the waste side ^ Marking gauge cut.

Pare with chisel, not as steep as shown, but my keyboard is limited.

Re: cutting tenons by hand

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>Hi Frank,

The best lesson I ever learned for sawing consistent joinery, especially tenon cheeks and dovetails, was to always saw down two lines at the same time. In other words, start the saw cut on the corner facing you, and simultaneously work down toward the scribe line and across the end grain on top. A friend of mine said this is like 'building your own miter box as you go', because if you can get into the cut in good shape for, say, 1/2" on both faces--you've just about got it whipped right there. The kerf is beginning to be self-guiding. You can turn the board around as Jack said, and do the same thing on the other side. But as long as you're tracking right on the two sides you've started on, it will be right on the other side, too, and after a while you stop taking a peek.

Try to shave your marks but leave part of the mark as a witness. As far as which saw to use, I think it's way better to go broke buying saws than planes.

Wiley

Wiley

Re: cutting tenons by hand

frank shic

>sounds like ian kirby's method! thanks for the tip.

Re: cutting tenons by hand

frank shic

>wiley, i favor your method as its the one that frank klausz uses - have you ever seen how fast he moves?!? BTW, i think you're in the MINORITY when it comes to spending greenbacks on SAWS rather than PLANES!!! i'm refraining from purchasing any of the fancy ones from lee valley or lie-nielsen for now as well :)

Re: cutting tenons by hand

frank shic

>not a bad idea, bob. have you ever tried SPLITTING the tenon like george huron does on the pared line?

Re: cutting tenons by hand

John Hoffman

>You also may want to check out Chris Schwarz's article on drawboring. It is a great method for tennon's that are not a glove fit. There was even pictures of old jointery that was sawn apart showing the loose fit of the tennon. I use it all the time regardless of the fit of the tennon in the mortis.

It was in the "Woodworking" magazine, not Pop wood.

Regards

JH

Re: cutting tenons by hand

ThomD

>If the surface area of the tenon is less tham 1 square inch, I would just do them like dovetails. When it comes to larger ones, I usually rough them and plane/chisel them, or rough them on the bandsaw, and plane them with the router table (which I realize isn't the point here).

I don't have that much difficulty getting the cuts, I used to do my resawing by hand 20 years ago, before I got a bandsaw, but I don't like the finish that I get off the saw. It's structurally fine if the tenons are hidden, but for something like slip joints, I just can't saw them clean enough right off the saw. If I can't finish them off the saw, then it is actually easier to finish them from a slightly fatter miss than trying to remove the saw marks only.

Re: cutting tenons by hand

Mark Nowicki

>Assuming you have laid out your tennon:

1. Square the shoulders. I use a chisel, it gives me a sloping groove that keeps my saw tracking straight.

2. Cut the shoulder to the laid out depth. I like to undercut slightly (tilt the saw to the right).

3. Secure the wood sloping at an angle of about 45* away from you. Keeping the waste to the RIGHT side of the saw (LEFT if you are left handed) and keeping the saw parallel to the ground saw to the shoulder cut you made in step 2.

4. Place the wood upright and finish the cut.

Repeat for the other side.

The general rule for cutting to the line is to keep the waste to the

RIGHT of the saw if you are right handed.

I haven't done this in about seven years so I tried cutting a tennon before posting. Piston-like fit.

Use whatever saw you have.

Hope this helps.

Re: cutting tenons by hand

paul womack

>I know people claim that cutting DT's is a rip cut - although actually (in practice) it's an end grain cut, and a thing all to itself.

But a tenon cheek cut really, really, really IS a rip cut. To this end Bob Wearing recommends making a rip filed tenon saw.

This is nice, but not essential.

http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_id=112878&submit_thread=1#message

The shoulder cut is a cross cut.

Most of the older books recommend sawing diagonals to achieve accurate tenons.

Place the workpiece in the vise at around 45 degrees, and saw down the 2 visible marked lines (waste side of the line).

Now turn the piece round-and-over, and saw the far-side diagonal. The 2 long-faces should now be sawn.

Now (and finally) place the workpiece vertical, and saw away the remaining "hump" in the middle of the cut, guided by the cuts already made.

BugBear

Re: cutting tenons by hand

Dean J in MN

>Frank --

All sorts of good advice already on the table. I'll add my 2d as well.

You called out your saw choice and the need to pratice. I think those two things, combined with following the sage advice of cutting on two lines at once will set you on the track to tenon success.

For me, when it comes to tenons I use the biggest saw I can get away with, both in length and tooth size (so a lower TPI). I've used my 28" 5tpi bowsaw on large tenons, and a 24" 9tpi on perhaps 90% of the rest. There is a balance to hit, but the more saws you have to choose from the better you can match it to your task. The way I see it, the less time I spend in the kerf the less chance I have of getting off track. If you get things off to a good start by cutting down two lines, you can hardly go wrong. To relate it to your dovetails, if you go back and look at how you have been successful, I bet it involves tracking two lines, the endgrain mark and face mark.

I'm glad to hear you would rather spend $$$ on saws, now if we can only convince someone to start making them for us. :)

-Dean

Re: cutting tenons by hand

Bob Fawcett

>No.

I am not usually blessed with grain that is straight enough for me to risk.

Re: cutting tenons by hand

frank shic

>dean, glad to hear that i'm completely out of my mind in trying to cut tenons with a 9 point bowsaw - it seems to be the QUICKEST way! after watching klausz do it a couple of times it seems so easy, but then PRACTICE is the key.

did you get a lot of exercise hand resawing?

frank shic

>with the amount of effort it took me to just saw a 1" tenon, i'll bet resawing an entire board must burn quite a few calories, thom!

Zen and the art of sawing

Adam Cherubini

>I recently was stupid enough to post to FWW's KNOTS woodworking bulletin board. The advice I offered, which was summarily dismissed by all, was precisely the advice all of you have offered (saw down two lines, use the kerf to keep you straight). So I'm home again.

For me, this is just a basic sawing technique, really far too basic to make it into an Arts and Mysteries article. I use the same technique for every saw cut. So just to touch on one part of Frank's question, I find consistency comes from practice which comes from using the same technique for a host of operations. So I don't cut that many tenons Frank, but they mostly come out fine since I always saw everything the same way.

As we back away from this discussion, I think Frank is benefited by a technique solution to the problem vs. the Zen approach of no technique and tons of practice. I know many craftsmen can saw straight down through the end grain accurately. But I don't think this is a valid technique worthy of comparison with what all of you have offered. Frank's been on a roll discussing basic techniques, which is great. As these discussions come up, I think its helpful to distinguish between actual techniques, and skills. I'm not sure if you can teach a skill.

Not sure if this makes sense. If you understand this post maybe you can summarize it for us.

Adam

Re: Zen and the art of sawing

Greg B�tit, Crown Point NY

>I don't know if this is adding to the discussion or not. I've tried several techniques, and lately I've settled upon what might be thrown into the discussion as sawing down one line. But I think technique here in a sense is similar to sharpening technique- go with something, and perfect it by constantly calibrating yourself.

First of all pay attention to how you lay out the saw cuts, how you lay out the mortise. Tipping the marking gage or following grain off the right mark ruins the joint from the get-go. Each mortise and each tenon is laid out more or less accurately each time. There's no such thing as perfection, only pretty darn good.

Critique each cut. A joint ended up looser than you wanted? What happened to make it so? Like a shooter who calls his shots, determine if you think each cut is on the mark- or slightly off in some direction. Try to predict how the joint will fit before you try it, then make the next cut better. If your prediction was off, figure out why. If you are able to understand exactly why the joint ended up fitting the way it did, you are honing in on what to do to make it fit the way you want.

Say your rate of improvement is directly proportional to the number of joints you do. If you couple this with a self critique before, during, and after each cut, this improvement rate will increase by a multiplier that is related to your skill in making a valid assessment of each cut. This samokritka (self criticism in non Ciryllic Russian) soon becomes a habit, and your joints will start fitting the way you want, instead of however they somehow ended up like.

Not many of us will be working 7 years as an apprentice for long hours 6 days a week under the practiced eye of a master, so we need to make ourselves learn at every opportunity.

Greg

Re: Zen and the art of sawing

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I think there is always going to be some tension between fail-safe techniques (first time every time) and those that take practice and experience. Often there is no right answer. For example a sharpening jig may be right for one beginner, while another might want to invest the time learning to freehand sharpen. A single craftsman may use more skill oriented techniques for things he does regularly and safer techniques for things he does occasionally.

I think it is wrong to think of craftsmanship as a series of tricks to be learned, or a set of orthodox techniques learned from a master, or a talent one is born with, or something that only comes from long hours at the bench. Nor is it true that just having the right tool will solve our problems. All of these things with care and discipline make for a good product and a satisfying experience.

Re: Zen and the art of sawing

paul womack

>For me, this is just a basic sawing technique, really far too basic to make it into an Arts and Mysteries article.

And yet one which is not universally known.

It's gotta go somewhere :-)

BugBear

Re: Zen and the art of sawing

Michael Recchione

>I think it may have been mentioned before, but saws and sawing have taken a real backseat to planes in the "handtool revival". One of the reasons, I think, is that it's really hard to mess up planing, and people who sell stuff do their best to convince you that you can just throw money at the planing problem to solve it. Learning to hand saw accurately requires developing a skill, not just buying the latest and greatest cast unobtainium vari-pitch sideways-bevel offering from wherever, guaranteed to tame the wildest tropical burl by just looking at it. In a way, many people approach a plane like another machine in the shop - buy the best, get it set up right, make sure the iron is sharp, and it does the rest. (This is an exaggeration, but I believe the spirit is correct.) A saw is a different animal altogether - you have to teach your hands and eyes to work together and get the cut started more or less correctly or the most perfect setup and marking is wasted.

I remember the epiphany I had when I read Pete Taran's explanation for why a handsaw blade should be polished shiny - that you could guage plumb and true by looking at the reflection of the wood in the blade. That was a great help in letting me know when I was starting a cut correctly. But knowing what plumb and true are and being able to make your hand guide the blade that way are two different things - only practice can give you the second part. To first order, technique + practice = skill.

Starting with good technique can shorten this process; starting with bad technique lengthens it. For example, if I decided that hitting the piano keys with my elbows was the cool way to do it, I might never get Beethoven piano sonatas to sound right. So it might not be a bad thing at all to discuss sawing techniques.

Re: cutting tenons by hand

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>now if we can only convince someone to start making them for us

That was discussed during last night's chat with Thomas LIe-Nielsen. (Sorry, I don't remember whether you were there, there were way too many people to keep track of them all.) TLN noted that his problem has been finding someone who could make the handles in sufficient quality and quantity. The good news is he has found someone who can do it.

If you are waiting fo the "bad news", I guess there isn't any.

Re: Zen and the art of sawing

Paul Kierstead

>"I remember the epiphany I had when I read Pete Taran's explanation for why a handsaw blade should be polished shiny - that you could guage plumb and true by looking at the reflection of the wood in the blade. That was a great help in letting me know when I was starting a cut correctly."

I am not sure where I got that tip (could very well be the same), but I only recently heard it and *WHAT A DIFFERENCE*!!! You practically don't need a line "down". One of the best tips I got in recent times.

TLN bad news

Adam Cherubini

>Regarding the production of tenon saws:

TLN noted that his problem has been finding someone who could make the handles in sufficient quality and quantity. The good news is he has found someone who can do it. If you are waiting for the "bad news", I guess there isn't any.

I hate to sound negative BUT: since Stanley never produced a tenon saw, I'm extraordinarily doubtful that TLN will make a decent one. I hate the way this sounds. I mean no disrespect to TLN. I think his products are great. But I think 99% of woodworkers simply don't know what a tenon saw is or how it works. You guys here have it right, but I doubt your voices will be heard.

Adam