Recommend One Smoothing Plane Please

Re: I have

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Hi Charles,

I have read Derek's reviews and Alf's reviews and Greg's reviews.

The reviews don't really affect me because I am happy with what I have but I am bothered by the fact that these people receive free tools from the manufacturer for doing the reviews (we have hashed this out before and we ain't going there again)

Their are other people on the forum who do own LN, Knights, and C & W's but LV never sends them free planes for reviews which I do find interesting.

I really don;t have the time to sit down and do a review as I have so many projects to complete my time is limited with a young family and heavy work schedule

Dan C

Re: I have

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>"Their are other people on the forum who do own LN, Knights, and C & W's but LV never sends them free planes for reviews which I do find interesting."

Funny, but I've always thought that one of the reasons why LV has let me in on pre-production versions of their planes is because I DO OWN L-N (I've bought virtually everything they've made), and Knights (I've bought at least two of them, and I think three, including one of the first of his infills), a host of other planes (including some of the most exotic and expensive hand planes out there), and also having bought several planes from LV (including a the LV block plane, a LV edge plane; several Primus planes, and even one of my L-N planes). It is of advantage to LV to obtain feedback from those of us who are familiar with other planes (including classic and more modest planes) and can thoughtfully and rationally compare them; Rob has noted this more than once. I'm not the only one who falls in this category. Folks like ALF and Derek freely discuss the many planes they have purchased from other competing manufacturers, and often very favorably comment on them, as have I (for example I love that little $50 dollar Mujingfang and the Knight 63 angle Coffin, and I admire what Shepherd has done in making infill plane kits available).

So frankly, your assertion doesn't hold water. I find it rather offensive, as well as pathetic the way some folks try to wheedle and/or cajole Rob into sending them "free" tools. Try demonstrating a depth of understanding and analysis of what goes into and comes out of a plane or any other tool, and the ability to articulate that well and fairly, and you just might find that Rob or some other manufacturer may value your feedback enough to solicit it.

Re: I have

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Hi Lyn,

I was expecting you to step in ;)

I have no desire to want a free plane from LV or any other manufacturer. I have no intention of keeping the plane either.

Really though, like I mentioned ealrier I work wood with what I have and don't have a need for one of everyhting. My LV catalog sat for weeks before I got around to looking it over and to be honest I still haven't sat down to read it.

So id I lead you or anyone else to believe I want a free plane you are dead wrong.

Dan Clermont

Re: I have

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>"I was expecting you to step in ;)"

I imagine a lot of other people may have as well, as I usually try to be helpful in discussions I know something about.

"I have no desire to want a free plane from LV or any other manufacturer. I have no intention of keeping the plane either."

My sense of things is that few of those who have used and/or kept manufaturer provided planes have had a strong desire for a "free plane." As I often point out, that plane is never "free" if measured against the hours spent in testing and analysis if quality feedback is given. You may be able to understand then, why a manufacturer might be reluctant to sacrifice a new in the box plane mereIy to satisfy your curiosity, particulary when you state you have no desire to own the plane.

I can't speak for everyone, but for me and most I'm familiar with, the purchase price of the plane is far less than the time is worth. Indeed, following up on your comment about persons owning/liking other brands of planes, in most instances the plane being evaluated is already redundant with one or more planes one already has. For example, with the new LV LA Jointer, I already had a L-N #6, 7 and 8, a LV #6, and an 24" ECE Primus Wood Jointer. Getting another long plane was of little interest to me, being able to contribute to the creation of a superior low cost high performance jointer that would be available to others, was of interest.

"Really though, like I mentioned ealrier I work wood with what I have and don't have a need for one of everyhting. My LV catalog sat for weeks before I got around to looking it over and to be honest I still haven't sat down to read it."

I have great respect for that position and situation. We all have our own style of woodworking and interest in tools, which is part of what makes this forum interesting to and educational for each other. Like you, I have a L-N #5.5 (mine is fitted with the 50 degree frog and has been upgraded to their new chipbreaker). It is an excellent plane, both in construction and performance, I can understand why you think highly of it. The thing is, when you only work wood with what you have, it is hard to offer a complete comparative analysis of competing tools. I think this is what Rob was trying to communicate earlier. It is one thing to say I have XX plane and I am extremely happy with it, it is another to say XX plane is the best plane or only plane you need for YY tasks.

As for the LV catalog, alas, I too haven't had the opportunity to go through it carefully yet. I suspect, however, my reasons haven't been as left to my discretion as yours.

"So id I lead you or anyone else to believe I want a free plane you are dead wrong."

Interesting sentence syntax. If you re-read my comments, you may find I didn't specifically target you with that statement. I used the more general and ambiguous phrase IIRC " some folks." It was left open for others to decide the individuals those comments best applied to.

Re: I have

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Lyn says:

"I imagine a lot of other people may have as well, as I usually try to be helpful in discussions I know something about. "

Are you truly trying to be helpful? Thams Skaggs queried "Recommend One smoothing Plane Please". Why didn't you respond to his query? I spoke up and voiced my opinion.

Lyn says:

"I have great respect for that position and situation. We all have our own style of woodworking and interest in tools, which is part of what makes this forum interesting to and educational for each other. Like you, I have a L-N #5.5 (mine is fitted with the 50 degree frog and has been upgraded to their new chipbreaker). It is an excellent plane, both in construction and performance, I can understand why you think highly of it. The thing is, when you only work wood with what you have, it is hard to offer a complete comparative analysis of competing tools. I think this is what Rob was trying to communicate earlier. It is one thing to say I have XX plane and I am extremely happy with it, it is another to say XX plane is the best plane or only plane you need for YY tasks. "

Again the question was recommend one smothing plane. Which I did.

Lyn Says:

"Interesting sentence syntax. If you re-read my comments, you may find I didn't specifically target you with that statement. I used the more general and ambiguous phrase IIRC " some folks." It was left open for others to decide the individuals those comments best applied to. "

Glad your not actually assuming I want a free Veritas plane. If I was given a free plane I would be biased or feel a need to at least make some positive comments.

Rob Lee offered to send me a factory second and I declined. If I am going to truly do a review I want it to be with a plane that could have been purchased by my neighbour and not something drop shipped to me from the factory. If one has to purchase that plane then so be it. I have no intention of buying any new smoothing plane so I won't be reviewing the Veritas unless one of my local friends actually has one for review and none of my local friends own a LV plane so that ain't gonna happen today but maybe someday I will be able to compare an off the shelf LV BUS smoother to what I consider to be my "recommend One Smoothing Plane Please" as requested by Mr Skaggs

Cheers

Dan Clermont (who is heading out of town for the weekend away from the rain)

Re: I have

Alice Frampton, UK

>Dan writes: Really though, like I mentioned ealrier I work wood with what I have and don't have a need for one of everyhting.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm-oh-so tired of the insinuation that just because someone doesn't favour the plane you favour, they don't do any woodworking. It's just a little childish, isn' it?

My LV catalog sat for weeks before I got around to looking it over and to be honest I still haven't sat down to read it.

Gosh, if you don't want it, I'll have it. I haven't got one. :~(

And before you ask why I haven't responded to Thomas' inquiry, it's probably because I didn't want to get involved in the same tired argument about bias. I don't find having Lyn's, Derek's, Rob's or my integrity valued at so low a figure a particularly edifying experience, funnily enough.

Cheers, Alf

Lie-Nielsen Low Angle Jack

Mark Nowicki

>

Dan, Others & Tommy ...

HC Sakman

>Hmmmmmm.... Dan, you have a problem. The up side is that it can be fixed if you receive some nice handplanes for free. Your method though... is questionable. Perhaps change of strategy? Sweet talk vs. nastiness?

Anyway, enough with the sarcasm. As nicely and properly I can possibly put: You're just out of line here Dan.

For Anybody Else:

This matter has so many variables, it's really hard to nail down the facts without spending a great deal of fuss over sharpening the blades, choosing the woods (even the same board! After taking 10 swipes on the same board, grain may change direction at the 11th. pass!) and other variables such as EXACT blade set amounts, even how tired the tester's muscles are. The user's experience, knowledge and skill level has a great effect on the outcome of a comparison test of hand planes. There are some factors and facts about certain planes' geometry, weight and design, therefore some of the outcome can be based on that, though I'd think (IMO) that would be fractional within the big picture including all the variables.

Every well made and/or tuned plane will work very well on some woods. Really well made planes will work well on most woods. None of the planes will work perfectly on all woods. This is my conclusion.

Like Lyn indicated, it takes an ENORMOUS time and effort to do a comprehensive comparison test of hand planes ON THE QUALITY/SMOOTHNESS of the CUT!

TOMMY,

Please don't ask silly questions like "If I have to have one smoother, which one should it be?". That's a bad can opener Tommy! You've got to have couple of smoother in your arsenal. That's being said, I'd start with a bevel up smoother with 2 blades, which is like having two frogged bench planes at different pitch angles.

Chico...

Re: I have

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>"Are you truly trying to be helpful? Thams Skaggs queried "Recommend One smoothing Plane Please". Why didn't you respond to his query? I spoke up and voiced my opinion."

For your information Dan, I responded to Thomas before I had any intention of entering this thread. I emailed Thomas privately, and attached two articles, one presently unpublished that I can not release publicly at this time.

"Glad your not actually assuming I want a free Veritas plane. If I was given a free plane I would be biased or feel a need to at least make some positive comments."

Actually I did not express a position on your intentions one way or another. I think you and others can make your/their own judgment based on your own words. As for your second statement, frankly I've always seen you as demonstrating more independence and integrity than that.

For all,

Really I would prefer we would focus on educating each other on the means, relative to the wood we are working, to select for optimal plane and blade characteristics, discern optimal plane adjustments (mouth size, blade extension, bevel angles, etc.) increase our proficiency in reading the wood growth characteristics, and gain control of our planing technique. This sets the stage for individuals to make the most of whatever tool(s) they have, as well as to personally analyze potential future tool purchases. Alas, that still won't be sufficient as it will be impractical for many to have the hands on experience with a variety of planes so as to confirm manufacturer information, and to gain a feel for the tools' fit to ones own body characteristics, preferred techniques, and usual projects. That's where tool reviews can be helpful, particularly comparative tool reviews like Derek and ALF and I (and occasionally others) write.

If you haven't noticed, the source for such reviews has been increasing. It used to be pretty much me, now ALF and Derek regularly put forward some outstanding reviews. Despite the naysaying and innuendo that comes from a few, I have no doubt that the majority of woodworkers following this and other forums are appreciative of the added information, which they can evaluate for themselves. The Lee Valley products have gotten a lot of focus lately, I believe not because Rob has sought feedback from some people, but because there have been few times in modern history when there has been such a prolific release of new handtools and designs over such a short period of time. In the bright light that has focused (sometimes highlighting shortcomings as well as postive features) on these LV hand tools, one sometimes forgets how much attention has also been extended to the tools of other manufacturers. In both of my studies I have deliberately sought to include a wide range of manufacturers and designs. One of my arguments with FWW is that I want more different manufacturers of tools and more different designs included in my article. The critics seem to forget my strong advocacy for the L-N Adjustable Mouth Block Plane (you want a recommendation for ONE block plane, well that's it), the L-N 140's of both directions, the Knight Coffin Smoothers, the inexpensive Mujingfang plane (long before LV started carrying it), the ECE Primus Smoother, and until the LV Shoulder planes came along, my delight with the Clifton shoulder planes (and I still love their 410). And of course there is my advocacy for Greenlee chisels that aren't even made anymore (though I an developing quite a fondness for the new L-N chisels). A similar list could be established for the other frequent reviewers. Really folks, lets work to offer the opportunity to raise everyone's understanding of the tools they choose to use, and the techniques which make them work. Quality reviews are one means to work towards that, and I for one want to be supportive of those who provide them, rather than discouraging.