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New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

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New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#1

New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I arrived home Wednesday to find a very small UPS parcel on the front porch. It had a Warren, Maine return address, but was too small and too light to be the 1" bench chisel I ordered, and was not expecting for quite a while yet, but I had a momentary lapse of memory.

I opened it to be very pleasantly surprised to find a 100 1/2 squirrel tail plane, with a round bottom and curved cutter. CS reported on this new tool in PW this summer (Issue #149, August, pg. 24), so I decided I needed one, in a hurry, and immediately called L-N. For a much better review, see Chris's article. Everything he said about it is true.

A note in the box said it was one of the first hundred made. There is a number on the bottom of the lever cap, maybe it is Serial # 21, but it might be a mold number. The one Chris reviewed probably has a number closer to minus three :^) Thank's for the very timely heads-up on this one, Chris.

I am very pleased with the workmanship and everything else about it. The finish quality is supurb, like I have come to expect from L-N. This is not a plane for everybody, especially not for members of the Flat Plane Society, or for the Gizmosity Factor geeks. There are just five parts, body (ductile iron with powder coat black paint), blade (A-2), lever cap (bronze) and cap screw (brass), and a non-removable lever cap pin. The front half of the back of the blade was honed and the edge was honed. No sharp edges (except the one that counts) anywhere, or any undue roughness in the casting or its coating. Just for fun, I might do some work on polishing the lever cap, just because I like the way Wayne Anderson's look, but not because it needs any work.

In another significant departure from the Stanley tradition, the blade is LABU! And it will cost you about a C-note less than a Stanley in minty condition.

Did I mention that I really love the stealth, plain brown cardboard L-N box, with the model number hand written in magic marker on both ends. A hundred years from now, these will fool all but the most erudite collectors, since the printed logo is hidden inside the box.

As it turns out, it arrived just in time, because next weekend, I will start some critical shaping (backing out) of replacement planks for a boat restoration project I have been working on. Note that, while kindo of modeled after the Stanley plane of the same name, the L-N is significantly different than either the Stanley or the bronze version offered by WoodCraft. Both of the others are correctly called modelmaker's planes, and are designed for hollow cuts in model boats. The L-N, coming as it does from real shipyard experience, has much larger radii of curvature, and is thus intended for use on real boats. I don't think it's intended for shaping violin backs, either. I honed the edge and tried it out on a piece of cherry. It comfortably made smooth, controlled cuts, without chatter. It should cut the Atlantic White Cedar like it is butter, but a report on that will have to wait until next week.

This is one small plane that will never be thrown at the new cat, which also arrived this week, or any other cat. Currently, I think the cat weighs less than the plane, but that will change. Blackdawg has suggested we name it Tasty Cat. I figured if I let her get the cat, maybe she will forget about getting the horse. I'm not in the mood to build a barn.

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#2

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

Jack Guzman

>William,

Your post got my interest.That sounds like a handy toy,I mean tool to add to my kit.I have very few hollowing options.

One sort of related question.I made an Andy plane and love the thing but I'd like to shine it up some.I polished the bed with abrasives but I don't know how to go about smoothing and polishing the body. What is your method for polishing brass?

Jack

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#3

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Nice post Sir will...sounds like a real treat to use for the boat work.

(Some day you will come to love cats as much as you do not having a horse)JR

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#4

What is this? No pictures. :)

Victor Parisian

>

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#5

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I usually use 320 and 600 grit SiC w/d sandpaper, lubricated with MS, followed by polishing compounds on a soft cloth wheel. I used two different grits, designed for ferrous metals by Dico, emery and stainless, in wax sticks and they seemed to work just fine, giving a mirror finish, but most everyone recommends using tripoli, white compound? and jewelers rouge for soft metals like brass and bronze. No lightning bolts fell out of the sky to punish me for using the wrong stuff, so I continue to use it.

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#6

Re: pics and links

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>You want pictures? Click on the cover and go buy a back issue of Chris's fine magazine. Pay no attention to the dude in the flannel shirt on the cover. He's harmless. It's what's inside that counts. :^)


Better yet, go right to the source by clicking on the thumbnail of the L-N Model Maker's Block Plane


If you go there, be very careful of the "add item to shopping cart" button.

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#7

Re: pics and links

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Speaking of which, I find myself somewhat frustrated trying to find a particular tool on the newish LN site. I first have to know that LN categorizes the new squirrel as a block plane vs special or miscellaneous, then I've got to watch all the block planes display to get to the one I want to look at. Sure would be nice if they had an alpha/numeric list view.

Pam

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#8

Re: blade angle

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>Is that blade bedded at 12° ? Looks like a nice plane. The only LN box I have has the model # on the outside. Wonder if anyone is cataloging LN and LV tools and changes in box types for future collectors.

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#9

Re: blade angle

Todd Stock

>I have several first production run tools from LN, and the inside out box allows them to use existing suitably sized boxes until the correctly marked ones show from their printer. Also seen them ship frogs and such the same way.

William: is the LN big enough for backing out? I'm looking at one for final carving of guitar braces and carving archtops on mandolins and guitars, but had not even though about using it as a boatbuilding tool.

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#10

box rant, blade angle rant

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>My comments on the box were firmly tongue-in-cheek. In general, I don't think things become collectable due to preparations in advance for their collectability. It seems to me that that kind of defeats the idea of rarity and esoterism, on which most collectors thrive. Instead, things become collectable due to most of the originals being lost over time, and due to very difficult, painstaking, careful and lucky research, not just a simple Google search, for example. Like the collectable Stanley boxes, these are designed to get the planes safely from the manufacturer, through the retail channels, and into the users' hands. Unlike the tools, they are ephemeral. After bringing them into the shop, I would expect serious users would take pride in making their own wooden storage boxes, or whatever, for their cherished planes. These boxes are the ones I would think should become the most collectable, but lots of collectors don't have the imagination to recognize the true value of these objects, and instead are not so much colecting the object as much as the names and words surrounding it. These guys seem to thrive on the "name game," not on skilled craftsmanship, which is the true meaning of the old tools. Maybe I should be preserving the UPS labels and packing boxes, "from Lie-Nielsen, to Sir William, Loxahatchee Toolworks, Cohansey," to pass on to my heirs? :^J

As to blade angle, I can't find it mentioned anywhere, nor can I find any standards on how one should measure the blade bedding angle on a plane with a sole that is curved in both directions. It would be an approximation, at best. I haven't bothered to measure mine. I can't measure a cutting angle either, since the blade is cambered. In a bevel up plane, that makes the effective cutting angle variable as well. It's just not important, since I don't plan to do any comparitive tests against it's competitors. IMHO, there aren't any real competitors, since it is a unique design, and blade bedding angle is an insignificant detail, which should not make any difference in a user's decision to buy the plane. You wouldn't be building a collection of 12° block planes, would you? :^)

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#11

Re: backing out?

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>ry small boat. This plane surely wouldn't be at all useful for backing out oak planks on a schooner, but the dinghy I'm working on is only 11' long, with Atlantic White Cedar planking finished to 1/4" thick. It's a Moth, specifically IMP TOO, the 1938 National Champion. About a decade ago, it was in an 8' pickup truck bed, newly restored and going home from its first race in over a half century, when it was rear ended while stopped for a drawbridge. Both ends were reduced to splinters, some of which were picked up off the pavement, and have survived. It is a totally unique boat, and no lines or table of offsets survive. The aviator who designed and built it may never have created any drawings. Some time this winter, I will find out for sure whether this plane was designed for this boat. Here, we are trying to piece together what was left of the first frame, and fit it between the rest of the boat and the nose block.


For really big boats, I would be more likely to resort to backing out with a makita angle grinder with a chainsaw tooth cutter :^)

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#12

You could have saved more $$

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond,CA

>A bought a Kunz plane for a lot less than the LN ;^)

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#13

Finaly...The $10 LN Plane !

Todd Hughes

>...Hmmmmm....So it cost a C not less then what a Minty Original Stanley 100 1/2 goes for ,eh?....Looking at it's completed auctions I see the Last Stanley 100 1/2 with 100% jappaning and looking like it never got used went on the ebay for $109.00 ! Another one with 99% jappaning and a red cap went for $80 something

Hey if LN can get the price down just a bit more who knows I might even buy one....Todd

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#14

Re: Finaly...The $10 LN Plane !

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I guess old tools don't sell so well, anymore. Too bad, because I have several I was hoping to upgrade someday to L-Ns or LVs :^) Also, too bad, because it decreases your profit margin, and I know you rely on a reasonable rate of return to save good old tools from "Old Tool Heck." Instead of looking on eBay, I used the prices in an old issue of Walter's Pocket Price Guide. Do you think maybe the users have stopped competing for the good old stuff, since there are more and more good new alternatives, leaving the collectables to the collectors, maybe? (Really, if they did, en masse, I think they would be making a serious mistake.)

BTW, if anyone wishes to follow the link, the L-N lists for $65, which is about $19 less than the Woodcraft bronze model of the 100 1/2. As I see it, there's no reason not to have one of each, if one needs this sort of thing for the work they do, since the geometries are so different.

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#15

Marketing

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Bet it is set up so one is exposed to all the offerings and may find something else to buy while looking for a specific tool.JR

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#16

Re: Marketing

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Which goes to prove I'm probably perverse in the extreme. I go there to look at/buy one tool, add it to my cart, then find a couple other tools I may as well get at the same time, add them to the cart, then discover that the total is humongous, so I buy nothing. Hah!

Pam

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#17

Re: Marketing

Paul Kierstead

>Actually, I do the exact same thing. So maybe not so perverse after all. OTOH, most people consider me pretty perverse, so who knows.

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#18

The perils of reverse psychology!

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#19

Re: Finaly...The $10 LN Plane !

Todd Hughes

>I think the old tool market is as strong or stronger then ever was , while some things come and go on the whole is very good at least judging from what I sell.I think on the most part it is driven by users with the "pure" collector only coming into play on limeted items.Might surprise you but Personaly I don't think modern planes like LN and certainly LV ones make much of an inroad at all into the original vintage tool market. For example if LN hadn't started making the 100 1/2 copys were you going to ever buy an original even though you could get a nice one for abot the same price? Doesn't sound like it since you never really looked at any I guess to see what they go for on the open market. I think for the most part ,[note I said most part] these new planes attract new wood workers and those coming from the power tool side and who believe they have to buy new expensive tools. After buying a few new planes, and they are comfortable with them and get more involved they probaly then start buying old iron too and in that way these new plane makers actually help sell the vintage ones. The plane that LN I imagine makes the most copys of, the Stanley Bedrock, still sell for high prices and I have seen no signs of them slowing down. If anything I imagine a good many people read the LN add copy and think why not buy the original. Befor Ebay they may have had trouble but today it is just as easy to buy a vintage bedrock as it is a LN copy I would think

I think the reason the 100 1/2 and some other planes like it have a hard time hitting book price is again because they are not popular with users, matter of fact imagine many users have never even heard of one so how can we expect them to think they need one. eh? Of course by the large number of originals I don't see I don't think tradtionaly many old time wood workers thought they needed then either. I do think LN will sell baskets of them because they are cute, different and I guess at $65 LN's cheapest planes. Probably most buyers will see one while looking at something else and figure "What the Hey" Even with a pure collector the Stanley 100 1/2 probably doesn't get to many excited, they either already have one or not a high priority .......Todd

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#20

Re: Finaly...The $10 LN Plane !

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I agree, this is a specialty plane, and probably never had a big market for Stanley, and won't have a big market for L-N either. But, it seems that more and more serious amateur woodworkers are experimenting in curved woodworking, so things might change, especially since Chris Schwarz points out that it is a viable alternative for finish shaping of chair seats. I wouldn't know, because the chairs I make have upholstered slip seats.

In my case, my need for such a tool is recent, and I was looking at the bronze WoodCraft version when the L-N was announced. I think in this case I would have chosen the bronze over an old Stanley, just because I have problems with tool corrosion.

I do have several vintage and more recent Stanleys that I use, and I seek out more of them when I don't think the advantages of whatever L-N or LV would do the job I need done justifies the additional cost. Specifically, I have #3, #4, #5 and #8 Stanley Baileys that I use extensively, and I like to think I got good deals on all of them. I've spent a lot more on replacement blades for them than on the planes themselves. Bedrocks would be nicer, but I haven't found a really good deal on one when I had an immediate need for it.

So then, what's the problem with Walter's prices? Do you think most of them are inflated, or just a few? In general, do the Stanleys you sell on eBay realize these price points?

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#21

$65? The LN site says $85 for the 100-1/2.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#22

Todd vs. Todd

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>After buying a few new planes, and they are comfortable with them and get more involved they probaly then start buying old iron too and in that way these new plane makers actually help sell the vintage ones.

Todd,

that is directly opposite of my way of thinking. I'm thinking that an aspiring WW wants a plane, but knows nothing about them, so he buys a vintage for a few dollars vs. several hundred to see what they are all about. than, once s/he gets the taste for them thru thru the vintage one is now "hooked" enough to be willing to plop down some big cabbage for a LN/LV.

So, what route have some of you taken?

I went vintage, to LN, and am now caught in the middle. I haven't been in the market fr a speciality plane recently, but if I do get to the point where I'd need one, I'd probably be inclined to go with the less expensive of the two, which more than likely would be a LN.

Todd O.

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#23

Re: Todd vs. Todd

John Aniano in NJ, somewhere...

>Todd,

I bought some of my very first tools, all "vintage" ones, at age 15. I played with these and quickly found I enjoyed using them so much, I then bought older tools, when I could find them. I've moved on since then to looking for primarily English and Scottish tools with some older American makers thrown in for balance, all of the vintage variety. I have some pre-war Stanley planes and use them, but for special work I use the older tools.

I do own (2) LN tools - the #1 plane and the small dovetail saw. They are certainly well made but I use neither very often because I have older tools that I enjoy using more.

My $0.02, since you asked,

John

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#24

Re: Finaly...The $10 LN Plane !

Todd Hughes

>The Walters price guide is just that a guide and like all price guides you have to realise that the prices are not set in stone. I have sold many Stanleys for over high book and many went for less then what I thought they should.Some tools just don't have the pizazz facter and in my experance are hard sells.Again I think it is user driven, try to get book vaule for most rules,levels, or marking gauges .....for most if you can get low book even for ones in excellent condition you are doing something.And these are for the most part tools that are not really being copied today ...LN ain't making wooden levels or rules so thats not it but instead not many users are interested in these things and the small collector market has them already or are holding out for mint examples

In the past when I sold a plane for over book it was always a plane that was in excellent condition and somthing that was in demand by users,planes like a 248, 289, 112 or a 50 will go high because they are uncommon and lots of guys are looking for one to use.Is a big mistake to think that users will not pay big prices and don't care about thier planes cosmetics. In my experance planes like 100 1/2, 113 circular planes,130 block planes which are not all that sought after by users and not really that rare to interest collectors are hard ones to get top dollor for.

I guess I sell a good many Stanley planes, though I normaly break the common ones up for parts because you get more that way [sold last week a Tote and front knob for $45....If I put the plane up I think I would have been lucky to get $25] Stanley Planes can be hard to buy to resell because so many people have a Walters pocket guide and "Know" what they are worth, also good , non common, examples are hard to find esp. at cheap prices.Personaly too I find lots of planes a pain to ship which keeps me from selling them too. I have lots of other stuff that is easier to ship and has a larger profet margin....Todd

Re: New Toy...uh, I mean...Tool (Essential)

#25

Hey John....

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>Seems to me that we haven't seen much of you in these here parts lately. Where you been? And where's our compadre Ray W.? Everytime I e-mail him I get a "Out of Office" reply. Gonna have to start calliing him "Yeti", we think he's around, but aren't for sure. ;~)

Todd O.

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