3V Plane Irons - long

Picture no 2

Phil Smith

>Attached is picture of rest of plane irons. These are for LN No. 4 and Clifton No. 5 planes along with chisels, lathe tools, a couple of knives and a couple of cleavers.

Re: 3V Plane Irons and Heavy iron - long

Phil Smith

>Along the way to making the plane irons, Bruce got me interested on old woodworking equipment. I am not only upgrading my hand tools but have also picked up a couple of pieces of old american iron. The plane irons on the top of a Northfield No. 4 Tilting Arbor Variety Saw that I picked up a surplus auction at a community college. Blade size is 16" with 5 hp 3 phase motor. The saw was built in 1993 and had never been used. Spent half a day get the cosmoline of the saw. In the back ground is a Powermatic moldel 81 bandsaw that I just finished reworking. This one requried stripping and paint along with all new bearings.

Roll yer own

Jim Reed@Tallahassee

>I think this is the best way to get a product that is superior to most mass produced items. Thanks for the pictures. By the way, you mentioned surface grinding AFTER heat treating. What is that step for? Are you worried about the heat ruining your temper?

Re: Picture no 2

Miles

>Phil, this is very interesting... I have been looking to get some 'experimental' chisels made up in a powder steel called RWL-34, that is reknowned for edge toughness when used to make knives (the custom knife forums are full of guys trying to find the holy grail steel for these), and my understanding of PM steels is that they do indeed offer a promising combination of hardness and toughness (there is a nice chart on Damasteel's website) and the very fine grain means good fine edges.

What plans do you have for these plane irons etc. once they are finished? I have a Clifton No. 5 and would be happy to buy one if they are for sale, and to report on how it behaves. Likewise, it would be no bad thing to continue the moves made by Hock & LN to develop/use superior materials for tools - if new options like 3V or RWL34 appear, there's a chance of them being taken up, so more choice for all :-)

RWL34 is stainless, so it might be useful when tools cannot be kept dry - even for green woodworking this might make a difference to lifetime as the edges won't corrode.

Dick Fine Tools have some 'fine grain' HSS chisels claiming high toughness and good sharpenability - did you ever try HSS stock for self-made blades?

Would you be interested in making something in RWL34 if someone offered a suitable inducement?

cheers

Miles

Cambridge, UK.

answer

bill tindall

>Heat treating results in a layer of oxidized metal at the surface which must be removed. There is usually some small distortion during heat treating as well. So, to get the backs flat and be rid of the black stuff, for this amout of steel it is desirable to take everything to a surface grinder and mow off a few thousandths of an inch. The result is a tool ready to hone, just like the surface ground stuff from LN, LV and others.

Personally, if I never spend another minute making the back of something flat for honing I will be a happy person.

Nice looking irons and iron...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Looking forward to seeing how there measure up. Thanks for teh post and , keep us posted please. Man o man that TS is a monster...

I am hoping that

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>Phil and Bruce and Bill Tindall will consider taking their blade making to the next step, as Miles suggests. These folks--each one and altogether as a team--are unsurpassed for reliability, care, and attention to detail. They would make a wonderful business team.

It should be stated that these abrasive-resistant high alloy steels require one to make a change to diamond sharpening, or else some method of motorized honing. Conventional stones will not get them truly sharp (see Steve Elliott's work in re S53), but will only wear you out. For example, I would put M2, 3V, and Holtey S53 all in this category, and surely M4 as well. However, if a switch to diamond media is made, they sharpen as readily as O1 on stones, and to an equally sharp edge. In my experience, 3V has approximately the same durability as M2, but grinds and hones far more readily. My comments here are just anecdotal--Steve Elliott has been conducting controlled tests, and it is his work that will serve as a reference.

Wiley

Heat treating scale

Jim Reed@Tallahassee

>My heat treater uses a controlled atmosphere oven to prevent scale and the backs of my blades are as soft as a baby's butt when they are done. An alternative is to wrap your blades in steel foil. Put a toothpick in to suck up the last bit of oxygen. Surface grinding creates heat and may ruin your temper.

Re: Heat treating scale

Todd Hughes

>How do you keep the back soft ["as a babys butt"] while I suppose having the rest of the blade hard and why would you even want the back soft as isn't this the part that actually does the cutting? ? .....Todd

Very sweet

Jim in Burlington On

>And a great big table saw.

Not me!

bill tindall

>making tools was a means to an end-Woodworking. Can't stand metal filings in the shop and I am back to making sawdust and shavings. I should start on the PA Dutch chest next week as the last Krenov cabient is about done.

more information

bill tindall

>Steel supplier recommends removing 0.003" after heat treating. 3V is tempered at 950 F, (hardened at over 2000 F). Surface grinding is done under a flow of water. As you can see, there is no problem loosing one's temper with this steel so long as it doesn't get white hot.

Personally, I would not trust any sort of wrapping to prevent all surface oxidation, which will lessen steel's properties.

Sorry

Jim Reed@Tallahassee

>I meant smoothe. It is as hard as my head, which, according to daddy, is about as hard as it gets.

Re: Not me!

Miles

>That's very understandable - it's a whole different set of challenges and rewards - if it doesn't press your buttons then why should you give up what you actually enjoy doing? I'm still in the 'hmm, this looks interesting' stage, and have not spent hours in the shop filing

Perhaps it would be possible to put down some documentation of what you have learned while doing this work, so that others could follow on more easily. Particularly for making chisels, it seems to me there is a tricky choice between removing lots of metal from a thick bar or forging to shape - which did you choose and why?

If I find out any more at this end, I'll post an update.

Miles

Re: Not me!

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I don't think forging is a suitable process for shaping Crucible Powder Metalurgy steels such as CPM 3V, probably because it would mess up the very homogeneous, very fine crystal structure. So, if you want the toughness, your choices for working it are cutting and grinding.

chisel making previously posted

bill tindall

>It was about 2 years ago (or maybe 3 as time passes quickly when you are having fun!) and I think on Badger Pond, the whole process of chisel making was described in three long posts. They are by far the easierst tool to make successfully with nothing more than a hacksaw and file. I think I have the text of the posting saved as a word file.

Re: chisel making previously posted

Miles

>I'll do a search on BP archives - thanks for the link. If you do have the file and can send it, that would also be great.

Off to North Carolina in the morning - any of you guys down that way? Is it a 'woody' kind of state? Better get back to work preparing - which ain't great on a Sunday night :-(

Miles

(Cambridge, UK)