plane facts on planeing?

Re: plane facts on planeing?

kenc

>You'd better believe an old Stanley can perform well! Even a run of the mill Bailey properly tuned up will perform at 95% of the capabilities of a L-N on most woods. My first plane was a crappy old blue Stanley #4 with a wide mouth and a plastic adjuster, stamped lateral and no frog adjustment. I could make paper thin shavings with that old dog once trued and sharpened properly and it was just tool lust and a respect for teh quality of old tools that led me to buy the 70 odd planes I have now.

If you want to spend money - buy the Veritas low angle Jack, I must say it's a wonderful plane if you just want one!

Ken

Re: plane facts on planeing?

paul womack

>1)Can good results come from the more common and less expensive older stanley planes if properly tuned and sharpened?

2)What is the marginal improvement of a plane blade flattened and honed to a mirror finish and sharpened on a 8000 grit watersone versus say a plane blade which has a relatively smooth, shiny back and an edge honed on an 800 grit oilstone.

The answer to (1) is yes - excellent results can be had from virtually any plane, with sufficient tuning (which can verge on treating the original tool as no more than rough raw material in extreme cases)

Your question in (2) is really (IMHO) "where is the point of diminishing returns in tuning".

Depending on your actual purpose in doing woodwork, I would suggest that the 2 surface (back and bevel) of a plane blade need to be finished to at least 600 grit Sic or equivalent before any "nice" shavings can be had.

Unless you're spending all yer' time doing site shuttering work, of course. Everything's conditional.

Ceratinly on the bevel side, once you've got a plane blade out, detached from it's back iron, and honed to 800 grit, it's very little work to hone a coupla' stages further. It's the removal of the round edge until you have a (tiny)burr that's normally the most (relative term) time consuming part of sharpening.

Polishing an already-flat surface is a very quick and low labour process, which I recommend.

Of course, some people, myself included, enjoy both the ritualistic aspects, and the sense of achievement, of pushing a tool to or beyond its accepts limits :-)

BugBear

I agree (and paper test)

Adam Cherubini

>I've been reading about photography. There are these internet photography forums full of experts who spout off about stuff they really don't know that much about. Can you believe it? Anyway, these know-it-alls insist that no decent picture can be taken without a $500 swiss tripod mount. So I know exactly where you are coming from.

I think Bugbear is dead on in his answer. I can only add: 600 Si-C and a green oxide charged strop got me through several pieces of furniture. I test my edges by slicing a sheet of paper. If it slices the paper cleanly when drawn, its sharp enough for rough work. If you can push the edge straight into the paper and produce a clean cut, the edge is sharp enough for most everything.

Tage Frid drove his chisels with a mallet. So he could get away with this sort of thing. I'd wager his plane irons got a wee bit more attention.

Adam

"been there; done that"

bill tindall

>My 20+ years of failure at using hand planes (and other edged hand tools) was a direct result of insufficient (shall we say bumbling ignorant) sharpening. Now, even the relatively recently made Stanley's I bought in my youth perform well. Spend the time and $$ to establish an effective sharpening technique and the effort will be rewarded.

How much is enough? Well, keep sharpening to an ever higher degree until you no longer see a benefit. The point of diminishing returns depends on the wood and goals of planing. For the routine stuff I see obvious benefit down to 1 micron abrasive.

Our club does a sharpening class about once a year. It is common for students to bring an old plane that they have never successfully used. You should see the look in their eyes when fluffy shavings peel off a hardwood board after a tune-up of their plane blade.

You might start with abrasive sheet sharpening (see discussions in Articles Section) or water stones as these approaches are cheap to implimnet and effective. Things like old fashioned oil stones cut very slow and they try my patience. Personally, I don't see a need for powered sharpening systems for edge refinement, though some sort of grinder is nice to get tools in the correct shape to begin with.

THE BLADE

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>DISCLAIMER--I am biased because I make my own plane blades.

You can certainly get antique planes ready for business. Many of us have. I have found better performance from better blades. Normal Stanley bench plane blades were made for carpenters. They were made for use on softer (housebuilding) woods and needed to be lightweight, inexpensive and easy to sharpen on the job site. You will find them easy to sharpen and easier to dull when used on cabinetwoods like maple and cherry. Do yourself a favor and get an aftermarket blade. It will improve the performance of your plane greatly and your sharpening chores will be easier. Good luck.

Re: plane facts on planeing?

Bob Fawcett

>"I watched a Rob Cosman tape and he planes curly maple effortlessly. 1)Can good results come from the more common and less expensive older stanley planes if properly tuned and sharpened?

2)What is the marginal improvement of a plane blade flattened and honed to a mirror finish and sharpened on a 8000 grit watersone versus say a plane blade which has a relatively smooth, shiny back and an edge honed on an 800 grit oilstone"

1) As others have said. Yes.

2) I would say the improvement is the differrence between what you experience now and Rob's effortless plaining.

When I finally got a tuned plane and a really sharp iron together, the differrence was night and day.

Re: plane facts on planeing?

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>Hi Bob

You wrote:

"1)Can good results come from the more common and less expensive older stanley planes if properly tuned and sharpened? "

Absolutely! Yes! Maybe. It depends ...

Firstly, I assume that you are referring to smoothing planes, such as the Stanleys benchplanes (#3 or #4 or #4-1/2) or the Bed Rocks (#60X versions).

You probably would get very mediocre results from one of these if it is used without some tuning. But with a flat sole (OK, flat toe-mouth-heel), a stable blade-frog set up, a small mouth, and a very sharp and smooth blade, you should have no difficulty producing good results in undemanding, straight grained timber.

I would not recommend the 45 degree cutting angle of the Stanley bench planes for anything that has interlinked grain, since it will be likely to tear out, but even such timber may be handled reasonably with modifications to the planes. A thicker (= more stable) blade with a backbevel can help noticably here. Nevertheless, there is a ceiling at which Stanley bench planes will no longer produce satisfactory results. Of course, at this point you could just break out your card scrapers ...

"2)What is the marginal improvement of a plane blade flattened and honed to a mirror finish and sharpened on a 8000 grit watersone versus say a plane blade which has a relatively smooth, shiny back and an edge honed on an 800 grit oilstone."

Your reference to Tage Frid using a chisel sharpened on 220 grit (60 microns) paper is not pertinent here. Keep in mind that Tage further honed his chisel on a motorized strop, and it was the strop that created a mirror shine on the bevel. Also, the chisel was used to chop out dovetails, not to smooth timber.

A bevel edge for a smoother needs to be more than sharp - it needs to be smooth as well. Whatever irregularities (i.e. scratches) are on the blade surface will transfer to the timber. A blade that is sharpened to 800 (12 microns) then honed on Veritas green rouge (.5 microns) will have a shiny but serrated edge. The process of sharpening takes the metal through a diminishing range of scratches. The 8000 waterstone that you referred to (and that Rob Cosman uses) has a rating of 1.2 microns. It is not necessary to go this far. I'd suggest that a 4000 waterstone (3 microns) is probably the minimum limit I would consider for a smoother. 6000 (2 microns) is better.

As others have noted, 90 percent of the sharpening labor lies in achieving a clean primary bevel, that is, one that produces a wire edge. After this, a microbevel honed with a 1200 and then 6000 waterstone should take no more than a few minutes. Use a honing guide for reproducability of the bevel angle, and the process goes even faster.

At the end of the day it will come down to the type of timber with which you work, and the level of tuning that you are prepared to work for.

Below is an old file picture of a tuned Bed Rock #604 smoothing a pine board.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: plane facts on planeing?

Norman (Metcalfe, Ont.)

>As Derek has mentioned, polishing the back and edge to a higher degree will eliminate the serrated edge created by lower grits.

This serrated edge, while initially seems very sharp, will dull very quickly because the sharp serrations literally snap off with use.

This leaves you re-sharpening the blade in short order.

On the other hand, polishing with progressively higher grits, up to 8000. will create a serration-free edge, very straight and smooth, with much more likelihood of holding its keen edge for a longer period of time. It does appear that going to higher grits is for aesthetics only, but the cutting edge changes considerably..

They only way to really see this the difference in stopping at 4000 and going up to 8000 for a final polishis through a powerful loupe

or magnifying glass. I was sold when I saw this..

Norman (living and learning)

Re: plane facts on planeing?

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>I'm not at all sold on the idea that a polished back and bevel are the optimum condition. Polished means that it is simply polished not flat or sharp. Just look at new German-made chisels. They are polished as is the custom and expectation. But the edges and back aren't necessarily flat. When I first prepare blades I use a Harris lapping system of cast iron plates and diamond abrasive. Harris advises that a polished surface is achieved by using the plates as dry as possible. They also state that the edge will not be any sharper than the rather dull surface achieved with the use of oil to float away the abraded metal. Most often I use oil stones. I agree that they are slower, but I find that the edge I achieve lasts longer than other sharpening media I have used. Some have postulated this is owing to the nature of the abrasive crystals of Arkansas stones (more rounded) which produces a better quality on the edge. No I have not done any Mangiamelliesque studies to verify this but it works for me. As galoots say, "your mileage may vary".

Depends on the wood you work

Tim of Livermore

>As others have said, the plane you use and the sharpness of the cutter depends on the wood you work.

Hard versus soft. Generally, hard woods can be worked with less sharp cutters than soft woods. If you take an iron sharpened to 4000 grit waterstone, it will plane hard maple without a problem and leave a good surface. You cannot even try to plane hemlock fir with the same plane. It pulls a few wood fibers which 'stick' to the cutting edge and you go about burnishing the surface rather than cutting.

Figured versus not. You'll have a fun time trying to smooth out a large curly maple panel with a standard Stanley smoother. It can be done but the cutter must be extremely sharp and the depth of cut as minimal as you can muster. The cutter may or may not need honing during this session. A higher bed angle combined with a sharp iron typically has no problems with figured wood.

So, if you build mostly with poplar and maple and oak, regular Stanley-esque planes perform admirably. If you work a significant amount of figured woods, you'll want different planes. If you work a significant amount of softer woods, you'll want a good sharpening set up to go with the Stanley's.

Tim

Aiken, SC (NM)

Larry Gelder

>Do you make your blades from High Speed Steel (HHS)? How thick?

Sorry Jim, Steel Question

Larry Gelder

>What type of steel do you use? How thick?

Steel

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>For my bench plane blades I use high carbon 0-1 steel. Stanleys are mostly 1/16. I use 3/32. It is stiffer and has less chatter. Thicker steel (1/8) sometimes will not work with the chipbreaker because the screw is too short. You may have to open the mouth a little. Depends on the plane. I like small cuts and small mouth, so I rarely have to adjust the mouth much if at all.

You can get your steel from MSC or Enco or Victor Tools. There are ways to heat treat it at home, but that requires skill and safety and leads to inconsistent results. I have mine professionally heat treated.

Most of the commercial blademakers use A-2 steel because it can be air quenched and heat treated in a continuous process. O-1 is oil quench and must be done in batches. All O-1 and A-2 steels are similar mixtures of high carbon steel.

Re: plane facts on planeing?

James Watriss

>I got trounced when I brought up sharpening stuff after a japanese tool class I took... But the guy who taught me used natural waterstones, in lieu of man-made, for similar reasons. He claimed that hte man-made friable materials used in artificial stones breaks off, but still leaves harsh geometric scratch patterns, which mean that the termination of every groove at the edge is v-shaped, creating somethign engineers like to call a "stress riser," which breaks down more quickly than an edge created with rounded particles. IT was his experience that his edges didn't last very long from artificial stones, too.

Anyway, as to the original post... Like everyone else, I'll tell you "YES!!!" there's a benefit to tuning stanley planes. If you're still a newbie, the point of diminishing returns is somethign that's still probably past your level of sharpening skill just yet. You may find it someday, but until then, keep practicing. The class I took involved tuning japanese planes, which are essentially a (very high quality) wedge-shaped plane iron shoved through a block of wood. He, too, planed some of the most higly figured maple I've ever seen, and taught me to get my own plane to do the same. You can get to a point where you can't see the defects in the blade, even with a loupe, and barely, if at all, with a 60x pocket microscope. But you can feel them in the surface of the wood that you've just planed.

Diminishing returns can be a misnomer, here. For some people, my aforementioned teacher for instance, a finer edge does more than hold up longer. It ensures that he'll have little if any sanding to do later on. Even if you can't tell that the edge is sharper, or that the sharening job is cleaner, the edge retention on good steel will be worth it, to a point. That's one reason to use harder japanese steel... the edge will hold up longer, all other things being equal. Knots and hard spots will still wreak havoc on an edge, though. But still... I'll sharpen a little longer if it means not having to sand.