Planing Contest Rules

Re: Planing Contest Rules

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I think your idea of measurement is good; my suggestion for a tie breaker would be the largest area scores higher. So if two shavings measured the same when averaged, the largest shaving would be the winner. I think it would be nice if you report back on your conetest, and as we add more contests together perhaps we could write a national standard for planing competitions.

I would think ahead about the following;

1) time limits

2) minimum width and length required for a shaving to be entered

3) What process you use to decide the order that the contestants are in the contest

4) how the board is treated between contestants; do you run it over a jointer, or jointer plane, or leave it as it is?

Re: Planing Contest Rules *LINK*

Frank D. in Montreal

>Hi Dick,

I've organized a few contests and I agree with Moses about your system (seems good) and about the tie breaking.

The most difficult part will be how to determine the area of the shaving. Edges will be pretty crooked and jagged.

One way to make measurements of thickness a little fairer is to fold the shaving over so you have 4 thicknesses, then divide the caliper reading by 4. Narrower shavings have an advantage over full length shavings because they are cut diagonally and taper on one side to zero thickness, so a really narrow shaving is usually quite thin too. But using the area of the shaving in the contest does help even this out. Calipers also help to be fair because the long jaws measure the thickest part of the whole shaving.

Just to answer Moses' questions and give you food for thought: In our contest we drew names in a hat to determine the order. I passed a jointer plane over the boards between contestants. We didn't really have a time limit since there were only 4 contestants (last time) and we needed some extra time to goof off. We only counted full-length, full-width shavings, or at least that's what we were supposed to do, but the judge wasn't too strict about it.

One thing that we will do next time is to have a big notepad (the kind you use for meetings) or a blackboard to post results for each contestant as they come, so the crowd can follow what's going on (more action and suspense).

The link below is a post I made on another forum about the contest I organized and participated in (the first of three; the other two will be this fall. I also organized a few last year).


Quebec Planing Championship

Re: Planing Contest Rules

Dick Darin

>Thank you for your comments, so far I'm leaning toward a formula that says the largest area is dominant. To measure area I propose the shaving is placed over a grid and the number of whole squares exposed are subtracted and a percentage of the complete shaving is calculated. thickness will be measured by wrapping the shaving around 2 dowels then using a pair of Josephson blocks and a good micrometer measure and then calculate the average thickness.

I'm going to paste the incomplete contest proposal so that your guidance can be more direct.

Proposal

Planing Contest Events

During the week, three separate events will take place:

• Plane Tune-up Workshop

• Planing Competition - Qualifying

 Junior Division (under 16 years of age)

 Senior Division (16 years of age and over)

• Planing Competition - Finals

Plane Tune-up Workshop

The plane tune-up workshop is valuable for persons who would like to participate in the contest but are unsure about their plane tuning skills. The workshop will have instructors and workstations available during the day for sharpening, and other work that may be required to prepare “granddad’s plane” for the event. In addition, there will be presentations on the “How and Why of Plane Tuning” (approximately 1 hour). One of the two beams provided will be available to verify tuning and for practice.

Competition - Qualifying

 All competitors are required to qualify.

 Qualifying will consist of a Junior and a Senior division

Junior – under 16 years of age

Senior - 16 years of age and over

 The qualifying order will be determined by drawing names. Father-Son teams will be considered two entrants but may, at their discretion, compete sequentially by putting one name in the competition order drawing i.e.

 The ten best qualifying scores will advance to the finals.

Competition - Finals

Rules

 The contest will be judged by one person who may at his or her discretion be assisted by a person(s) of his or her choosing.

 The rules for Qualifying and the Finals will be the same except as noted.

 Any totally manual plane of the owner’s choosing can be used.

 A one man, one plane rule will be enforced (i.e., one person cannot enter two planes and/or one plane cannot be used by more than one person.*

*exception A Junior competitor may use a loaner plane

throughout the competition.

 Two beams of equal species and similar character of high quality hardwood (cherry, walnut, maple, etc.) will be provided. One of the beams will be designated for competition only.

 The beam’s surface used for the competition will be approximately 2” wide x 8’ long.

 The beam will be supported to minimize spring over its length.

 Each person can have up to 5 passes on the beam to optimize the surface to suit the tuning of his or her plane. The person will need to declare his or her final pass within these 5 passes, i.e. have made two passes and declare the next pass to be measured.

 Scoring will be the area of the shaving divided by the average thickness. The highest score wins. This scoring system has a weakness because a very thin shaving that has a small area

Dick

Wrenching the monkey...

Scott Burr in absoutly sweet Ben Lomond,CA

>I've alwaye had a problem with this sh*t...

Isin't the true performance of a plane in the surface it leaves, not the shaving? I can pull 0.00075 shavings with no problem at all out of all my smoothers if I want, so what... I don't want shavings out of my smoothers, I want fluff. How the finish of the final product produced is the true question. Again MHO...

Re: Wrenching the monkey...

Frank D. in Montreal

>Hey Scott,

You're not the only one who has moral objections to planing contests.

On the level of the contest itself, if you're going to have a contest, you have to try to make it fair and be able to judge it. Now a nice surface can be judged but when you have 5 or 10 guys with well-tuned planes leaving a glass-smooth finish on a board, who's to say which one is really the nicest? A nice finish is a nice finish. Even if they get a little tearout on a difficult board, how can you fairly (or prectically) differentiate between one board with a little tearout and another? Judging surface quality is like holding a Miss America contest. We'd have to get those boards to sing, dance and tell us what they would do, if they could, to make the world a better place, if we wanted to tell them apart. On the other hand, the thickness of a shaving, which is not totally unrelated to those fine fluffy shavings that you take on a final pass, is easy to measure. It can be measured objectively, like time in a race. Kind of linear and brainless, I'll give you that, like NASCAR racing I guess, but objective.

Of course all of this is beside the point. These contests are really a way for hand tool users to get together and have fun (and a few beers). Like belt sander races, only less dust and noise. It's also a fun way to test their tuning and sharpening skills, as well as their ability to control their planes and produce a continuous thin shaving several feet long, and meet some old or some new friends.

But most of all, it's a way to promote the use of hand tools. At the wood shows where I held the contests, people were amazed at the quality of finish left by hand planes, and other woodworkers got to hold and try out a plane with a sharp blade for the first time. They also got a chance to talk about woodworking with hand tools and to ask for advice. And my favourite part is handing out the shavings to the kids. They love 'em! Think of all the kids who will remember me when they start visiting this forum in twenty years time "I remember that Santa Galoot who gave me my first shaving...I kept that shaving in a shoe box under my bed for 3 years...until it turned to dust." And these contests do attract people; during the first one I held the people were swarming around us, hundreds of them, we had to fight them off and call security eventually.

So are .0004" shavings really important? Of course not! Relax man! And maybe drop by our next planing contest. That way we'll see if you really CAN make those .00075" shavings you seem so flippant about ;)

Frank

Re: Planing competitions

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>Why is it that it has taken over a hundred eyars to make some very small improvements on the bailey pattern plane? I am thinking mainly about LV planes, and the minor changes they have made. After all, look at cars in the late 1800's. They were perfectly functional, and worked better than anything else up to that point. And yet look at the difference between a car in 1895 and a car in 1995. Then look at the difference between planes during the same time period. What led to improvements on the car? Was it not mostly due to car races?

I would agree that a planing competition is not something I would want to do every day, and I certainly would not take it to seriously; but I agree a hundred percent with every reason Frank stated for planing competitions.

A bicycle hasn't changed much in 100 years

Ian in Sydney

>I always thought planing contests were just for fun

re your analogy with planes, 'planes and automobiles. It could be that Leonard Bailey got it pretty much spot on. As an example, the bike Lance Armstrong is riding in this year's Tour de France is pretty similar to those raced 100 years ago. The derailer gear mechanism was patented arround 1895, I think pneumatic tires were developed even earlier, the diamond frame's been around since the 1850s as well as spoked wheels, etc. The "modern enhancements" to the basic bike design are stronger materials (=lighter bike) and aerodynamic gear for the riders.

Re: Planing competitions

Todd Hughes

>The simpler something is the harder it is to improve it.Sure you can jazz it up maybe and add somethings to it to make it "better" but not really improve it.Unlike a car a hand plane is a very simple tool, really just an object to hold a blade at a certain angle.Really hard to actually improve on somthing like that.I won't comment on "Modern" makers improvements but if you look at all the changes Stanley brought out from thier type 1 planes to the last ones were any of them really that big of an improvement? Probably not.True Sometimes advancement in technology adds to the advancement like when cast iron planes replaced wooden planes once it became easier to cast the cast iron bodys....Personaly I think that planes probably reached thier peak in devolopment over 100 years ago and no further real improvment is possiable or even needed....Well at least till they get those micro laser beam computer controlled blades up and running, eh?....Todd

Re: Wrenching the monkey...

Todd Hughes

>These contests are for what they say they are for which is to see who can produce the thinnest widest shaving....and thats it. ...In the knife world they have all kind of tests such as seeing how many times you can cut a free hanging rope in two with your knife. Of course I always wondered just who ever has to cut a free hanging rope in two in the real world so what does that have to do with anything. Just as it is with the planes I imagine in these contests lots of these rope cutters use knives that are specialy set up for this type of contests and practice doing it....I guess kind of fun if you are into that kind of thing .....Todd

The contest is just for fun, isn't it?

Ian in Sydney

>My 2 cents

The contest is just for fun or are there really serious prizes to be won?

Do you expect the competition to attract a lot of really experienced plane users or is it primarily for entertainment?

Either way, I'd run two quite separate competitions:

The first would be for those who have attended the plane tuning workshop. Sort of like, now that you've tuned your plane give it a whirl. I'd judge the winner to be the person with the longest continuous shaving, with "points" deducted where the shaving is not full width.

You could declare a winner from every tuning workshop, or once per day, or some other frequency.

If there is to be a prize, I suggest either a water stone, or glass plate for "scary sharp".

The second contest would be an all comers event.

Bring your own plane, enter on the spot and take a swipe.

Your entry "fee" (if there is one) entitles you to take 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 swipes.

After the competitor has finished their "go" they can nominate which shaving is to be measured.

The winner (for each division) will be the person, or team, with the longest continuous shaving (longest combined length for father / son teams), with "points" deducted where the shaving is not full width. Should there be a tie, either measure the shaving's thickness, or hold both shavings up to the crowd and let them decide which is finer.

As to rules, from the way you've described the week you intend the competition to be fun, so may I suggest:

one person + one plane = one go

one person + two planes = two goes,

two people (except for father/son teams) + one plane = two goes, etc

a competitor can ask one of the organisers to condition the beam (using the organiser's #7 or #8) immediately before their go.

longest continuous shaving wins, in the event that there is more than one full length shaving, the winner will be decided by:

1 the widest consistent shaving,

2 if more than one shaving is full length and width, then the winner will be the thinest shaving. Shaving thickness will be determined by folding the shaving into 10 apprioximately equal concentina folds, and measuring the resultant thickness.

You may want to have divisions for mother/daughter, father/daugher, granddads/grandsons, etc. Do I and my 84 year old dad qualify as a father/son team?

You seem to be envisioning a multi-day event.

How likely is it that a person who competed on day one will be able to return to compete in a final on day five?

Though you may have a prize for the best shaving of the week.

Material:

At 2" wide, your proposed competition beam will be too wide for anything smaller than a #4½ or jointer. So I suggest a beam 1.5" wide.

I'd make the beam 7ft long, that way the leading three or so shavings can be displayed on a piece of ply.

Restrictions:

you may want to prohibit edge and spill planes.

I reckon I could easily take a full length shaving using a #95, and it would be a doodle with a spill plane.

Ian

Re: Wrenching the monkey...

paul womack

>* Race cars bear little resemblance to road cars

* You wouldn't want to go hunting with an Olympic target bow

* javelin throwing is no longer a mainstay of the military

Competition (often) turns into a specialisation in its own right.

Lumberjack contests are a good example.

BugBear

Re: A bicycle hasn't changed much in 100 years

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I think Lance Armstrong might strongly disagree on your opinion that the bike he is riding is very similar to one made in 1895.

Re: Planing competitions

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>The only thing a car does is move a person from point A to point B. That's it. Seems pretty simple to me.

Re: Planing competitions

Todd Hughes

>If you look at it that way maybe the PURPOSE of the car is simple [like a space craft sent the moons purpose is simple...get to the moon] but don't think you can say the car,[or space craft] itself is a simple item.......If you still think a car is pretty simple I have a girl friends whos 95 Volvo transmission needs rebuilt! ......Todd

Thanks for being frank...Frank

Scott Burr in absoutly sweet Ben Lomond,CA

>I'm a more relaxed as you suggested. Back from the beach, sorry for the late reply. Yea no surf either but a nice day at Scott's Creek Beach.

I love your post! It's nice to see the attitude and to hear you feel about it.

O.K. so it's about fun, glad to hear it.

This shaving is from 603 equipped with a Hock iron & thick chip breaker or cap iron as some say. Yes it's pretty much full width. I just put it together. She hasn't been flattened or nothing. This shaving is from hard maple.

I'd like to hear what wood your shaving is from... The plane too, looks to me like a LN 4 with the improved breaker.

Now, I'd love to come up to the great white north and play with ya'all and drink a few Labbat's, maybe sometime eh?

Scott taking the mic's down to the shop to play with the infills and try to beat ya...;^)

Yeabutt...

Scott Burr in absoutly sweet Ben Lomond,CA

>A truck will bring the wood home whit you too...

Re: A bicycle hasn't changed much in 100 years

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>It's more areodynamically functional, the handlebars are somewhat different, the clipless pedals etc. But in basic form and function, the bike hasn't changed much at all. Mostly it's improvements in stiffness, weight and areodynamics. (Though much of this is demanded by the rules of what a "bike" is and the rules governing that.)

But truely, the bike was pretty much spot on for what it does. There aren't many refinements that would be beneficial and also leave the thing a bike (or hand plane).

Cheers,

Greg

Good story, Frank!

Ellis Walentine

>I really enjoyed your writeup on CW forum. Nice job.

Ellis

PS Nice shirt, too. :-)

Ooooh!

Frank D. in Montreal

>Nice one. Looks like you can pull off a sub-thou shaving after all! Not that I ever doubted you though ;).

The one in my pic is also from hard maple. It looks short and fragile, but after the pic I stretched it out and it stayed together (around 30" long). The plane is a LN 4 1/2 (I use my 4 in contests too, it depends on the conditions like how flat the support is). I'd like to experiment and make a plane with a Japanese blade but it's not too high on my list of things to do right now. The thinnest measurement I've gotten at home fooling around is .0002" but the micrometer had a margin of error of .0001". Funny thing is that the difference between woods shows a lot less at this thickness. Pine and hard maple plane almost identically. The most troublesome woods I find are the ones with a high silica content that resist blade penetration.

Oops, looks like I'm getting serious here. But if you're ever up north and out east, by all means drop me a line. The beaches aren't quite as nice as the ones in your neighborhood, but we still know how to have a good time.

Frank

(who's waiting for his Shepherd infill kits to show up in the mail)

Spoken like somone who's never ridden a recumbent.

James Watriss

>Just poking fun.

Actually, despite all the crazy looks I get, I have to explain to people that despite a radically different frame and posture, the basic components are the same. Still... they can be much more fun to ride sometimes. :)

Re: Planing Contest Rules

Dick Darin

>Come on guys lets try harder I'm old and have had a stroke, my grammar is bad and my math is worse, results are I can't figure out a fair way to decide the winner. In a perfect world I think the thinnest shaving at the largest area should win because everyone would have a complete shaving but that won't happen so I have to consider the person with a partial shaving. For example a contestant with 98 percent area at one half the thickness would lose even though as we all know that's harder to accomplish. If you correct the thickness by increasing it by the the decrease in area(above example 1.02 times measured thickness) the results might be fairer but I think you can still get some aberrations in the results using this formula.

This is bothering me because I intend to have a Junior class and anticipate a lot of partial shavings. If it were a expert class you could just eliminate partial shavings and measure thickness.

Help Dick

Ahhh man... I'm just getting started...

Scott Burr in absoutly sweet Ben Lomond,CA

>Thanks Frank! Nice shavings dude, but heck I just sarted measuring 'em homeboy :^)...

I've pulled some thin ones off my LN 4.5 too, alas never started measuring them until recently.I'm gonna have to spend a little more time planeing and mic'kin? Naaaa...Rather make something.

What Shepeard plane did you order?

Re: Planing Contest Rules

Ian in Sydney

>Dick

In the following I'm assuming your contest is mostly about having fun and allowing people, who have rarely if ever seen what a sharp plane can do, to have a go at planing.

Accordingly, the "rules" can be quite laisse faire. It's only if you anticipate a few really experienced users hotly competing for a valuable prize would you need detailed rules.

Because you anticipate a lot of shortish, partial width shavings, I suggest you judge the winner to be the person with the longest continuous shaving, with "points" deducted where the shaving is not full width. In the event of a tie on the easy stuff, bring out your "tie buster" which could be a piece of Jarrah or another really dense hardwood with tightly interlocked grain — what you want in the tie buster is a wood that is a real challenge to plane.

I suggest you try and keep the rules simple, such as:

Bring your own plane, or borrow one of ours (have a number of loaners for use by those who haven't brought their own).

one person + one plane = one go

one person + two planes = two goes

two people (except for father/son teams) + one plane = two goes, etc

a competitor can ask one of the organisers to condition the beam (using the organiser's #7 or #8) immediately before their go.

The entry "fee" (if there is one) entitles you to take 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 passes down the beam.

After the competitor has finished their "go" they can nominate which shaving is to be measured.

The winner (for each division) will be the person, or team, with the longest continuous shaving (longest combined length for father/son type teams), with "penality points" deducted where the shaving is not full width.

Should there be a tie, the tied contestants get to take a shaving off the "tie breaker". The tied contestants continue taking shavings from the "tie breaker" until the loser produces a short shaving or the organiser declares the contest a tie.

You may want to have divisions for mother/daughter, father/daugher, granddads/grandsons, etc.

A situation you might like to consider is:

Do I and my 84 year old father qualify as a father/son team, or does the son (daughter) have to be under a certain age?

Material:

At 2" wide, your proposed competition beam will be too wide for anything smaller than a #4½ or jointer. So I suggest a beam narrow enough to be planed by a #4.

I'd make the beam 7ft long, that way the leading three or so shavings could readily be unrolled and displayed on a flat surface.

Restrictions:

you may want to prohibit edge and spill planes as taking a full length shaving with one of these is pretty easy.

You seem to be envisioning a multi-day event.

How likely is it that a person who competed on day one will be able to return to compete in a final on day five?

hope this helps some

Re: Plane technology

paul womack

>you may want to prohibit edge and spill planes as taking a full length shaving with one of these is pretty easy.

(chuckle)

It's also easy with a 2-point contact plane. I even ground the sole of a beater #4 to prove it. Using it is "interesting" when you're used to normal planes.

previous discussion

BugBear