A Five Legged Bench, or, more on Bench Layout:

Re: A Five Legged Bench, or, more on Bench Layout:

Adam Cherubini

>So here's my newest thoughts about my bench:

Crochet, left front, w/the two flush legs, holdfasts, sliding board jack, and support timber between the legs.

You don’t need the sliding board jack. They work, but you don’t need one.

Planing stop atop the bench, left front again - holdfast holes where appropriate - also, a wedge system seems like it would be a nice addition, right before the normal planing stop, for thin, wide stock.

Are you talking about a bird's mouth? A thing flat on the bench that looks like this? < This is usually for edge work on narrow stock. You don’t need one of those either. They also work fine.

And, the biggest change to my thinking: wooden twin screw vise, left END of the bench, w/a fifth leg under the center of the vise, flush with the end of the bench.

That’s a good idea. That leg could be a board like a board jack. It could just tenon into the stretcher.

A bench hook for crosscutting can then be made, and used on the right front corner, and as well, the entire face of the bench is wide open for edge joining. So what am I missing?

I think you are missing the notion that you can’t add features without taking something else away. Less really is more. And wooden screw vises are easy to remove, so I don’t think you should be concerned putting a twin screw on the right as Moxon shows. Mine is on the left. Its really not a problem there but if I had to do it over again, I’d move it 6’ to the right. Its nice to plane short narrow stock (like drawer kickers, dividers etc) in the twin screw. So again, depending on where the bench is, that may guide the placement of the twin screw.

I think its nice to have your bench along the wall for storage over it. It also keeps tools from sliding off the back. I tried a free standing bench and I didn’t like it. And floor space is power in a woodshop. Don’t be in any hurry to fill it up with stuff. Ditto for a living room. Open floor space, like open wall space is a luxury, not a deficiency, IMHO.

Adam

Re: A Five Legged Bench, or, more on Bench Layout:

Paul in NJ

>The shoulder vise, has not been mentioned recently. It and a board jack will hold boards securely for edge jointing and also vertically for dovetail or tenon cutting. You will probably still need a bench hook in addition to hold wide panels vertically for dovetailing. It will be a little slower than a crochet and it sticks out quite a bit from your bench too. I recently added one to my bench after years of using a face vice. I shortened the screw by a few inches so that it would not take up so much space.

Paul Dzioba

Thinking outside the box.....er, bench.

fmutchler@adelphia.net

>Why not join the crochet into the apron so that it can be quickly installed or removed. It seems to me that it would easily coexist with a twin screw or any other face vise then.

Perhaps the key is to think of the vises, crochet, etc. as tools in the same way we think of holdfasts, plane stops, etc. I've seen old pictures with leg vises and twin screws used interchangeably on the same bench. Why does a vise or a crochet have to be a permanent fixture? Why not have a basic bench that can accept optional fixtures as necessary?

I can imagine a vise that can be mounted into a quick detachable receiver on either the end or face of a bench as well as a crochet that can be installed/removed with a simple lever.

Re: A Five Legged Bench, or, more on Bench Layout:

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>And it pretty much requires that fifth leg.

Pam

Re: A Five Legged Bench, or, more on Bench Layout:

Wendell @ Murphy, TX

>If you mounted the vise on the end, would you have to add an end cap so that both jaws of the vise would be long grain?

I think you've convinced me not to worry about the vise being on the front. For the stuff I see myself building, I wouldn't need much more the four feet of front apron to work with. If I occassionally need more, I can always remove the vise.

Wendell

Re: A Five Legged Bench, or, more on Bench Layout:

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Thanks for the thoughts Adam. I don't mean to sound hung up on never moving a vise, or something like that, but I've got a chance here without a bench, to build one from scratch that will be as great a bench as I can possibly make it - and if I can incorperate all the neccessary elements, without having to move them around to use one while I use another, it's all the better in my mind.

I can't arrange my shop right now, to get a bench against the wall, so I'm fairly bound to it being free standing. The excuse for a bench I have now has been that way for sometime, and I think I can get use to the bench away from walls.

David

Re: A Five Legged Bench, or, more on Bench Layout:

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>You know, I have considered the shoulder vise - in fact, that was one of my original plans, to use a shoulder vise left front on my bench. But, I guess the complexity as much as anything, steered me from that vise. And the twin screw seems to do everything it will do, and then some, so I've migrated to preferring it.

And the ideas about making the crochet, and everything else for that matter, removable, is an interesting one. But, it's not exactly where I want to go with this bench - I am looking for versatility, and lots of options when it comes to working with wood on a bench, and yet I don't like the idea of a raw bench that I add to, move vises around, etc, as much as I like the idea of one bench, that has the best tool for the job, available at all times. So, we'll see - mind you all, I've done very little hand work in my whole life, so all of this is a lot of speculation and talk from me - I have no real experience with any of these benches, their assecories or these vises! So, we'll see how this thing turns out one of these days!

Thanks.

David

Re: A Five Legged Bench, or, more on Bench Layout:

paul womack

>Crosscutting: the right end of the bench is the best place this can happen

Apart from tenon shoulders, which are precision work, best done close up, a bench high enough for planing is far too high for effective sawing.

A pair of saw horses is easy to make, and I recommend them.

BugBear

I disagree

Adam Cherubini

>Apart from tenon shoulders, which are precision work, best done close up, a bench high enough for planing is far too high for effective sawing. A pair of saw horses is easy to make, and I recommend them.

I do quite a bit of sawing on my bench. Much of it is precision stuff as Bug says, but not all of it. I do (for a reason unknown to me) a fair bit of scroll work on my bench. Crosscutting probably makes up the lion's share of the sawing I do at the bench. I find standard bench height appropriate or even ideal for this sort of sawing. I agree that saw horses are essential, but ny no means a substitute for a bench at which one can saw easily.

My disagreement is probably with an unintended implication. Sawing at the bench is a critical operation for a craftsman who relies on hand saws exclusively. I urge you not to underestimate the usefulness of having a clean right end of your bench. I guess the reason I mention this at all is that my bench does not have a clean right end and I find my tail vise hampers my sawing.

I know some of you think tail vises are nice and you really love them. You know I don't join you in that. But in the whole scale of nice, even if I loved my tail vise, I wouldn't say it is worth sacraficing sawing for. At the time I built my bench, I intended to saw on the back of my bench. That didn't work out for me.

Anyway, I guess David's challenge is to define what features he wants, (I think he's got that figured out) then determine how those features interact deterimentally with one another (I think he's there now) and nextr is to place a value on each. Without several years experience, I think this is an impossibility. So my vote is to place a pretty high value on sawing. Place a lower value on the need to pull cup out of a wide carcass side. There are certainly other ways to do that. And to disagree with bugs (implication really) saw horses cannot substitute for a nice bench to saw on.

Adam

I suspect that very few woodworkers actually rely on hand saws so the need to optimize benches for sawing has fallen off their radar screens. I think that's an unfortunate fait accompli- My bench with its tail vise for example is very difficult to saw on and I do quite a bit of sawing there.

Re: A Five Legged Bench, or, more on Bench Layout:

George Bustamante

>Dave,

I also am planning on mounting a twin screw vise on the left end of the bench - thanks for the idea of a fifth leg. I think it will work great!

George Bustamante

Clarification

mike recchione

>Adam, not to get personal or anything, but you're tall. Very tall. While I do have a free end on my primary bench (it's free standing, so the "back" face has a clean end on the right), I would never dream of using it for ordinary cross-cutting with a panel saw or traditional western carpenter's saw. It's just too high. My saw bench, which sits right next to the primary bench, is perfect for holding a piece of wood with a knee while I crosscut or rip it, and it's much less fatiguing to work at this angle for someone of my less altitudinally gifted stature.

I do use the bench plenty for cross cutting, but this doesn't require a free end. I use a bench hook (or a pair of them for longer pieces), and do the sawing towards the middle of the bench. This operation uses a back saw, and is more like precision cutting than the rough dimensioning that I do on the saw bench.

Is that what you meant? If so, I don't see the need for a free right end.

Re: I disagree

George Bustamante

>Adam,

As usual, you bring up some great and thought provoking points - thanks.

That said, I really want to incorporate some form of tail vises into my bench and I wonder if there is a simple way to have my vise and still save the right hand corner of the bench for sawing.

I propose some type of detachable handle that allows you to remove the assembly from the screw on the vise. This should be easily acomplished with a strong magnet or other device.

I have an old Arboga drill mill that has an ingenious feature allows Morse Taper tool holders to rigidly attach to the machine (important in machine tool work), yet detach quite effortlesly by means of a small pin that pushes the Morse Taper tool holder out at the extreme limit of motion. In normal operation, a small lever prevents the quill from moving to this extreme position.

Not traditional by any means, but a simple, quick and positive solution.

George Bustamante

Re: Clarification

Adam Cherubini

>I thought about that when I wrote "standard bench height". You're right, I'm freakish, but my bench is higher accordingly.

But forgetting about me, are you saying you prefer not to cross cut (with an open saw) on your bench? Do you feel the need to get over the cut? If you are cross cutting a 1x12, where/how do you do it?

I'm sure your answer will be helpful. But venturing back to my point for a moment, I think a lot of woodworkers do all their crosscuting at a chop saw or radial arm saw so provision for sawing at the bench have gotten washed away. So I'm just saying we have to beware of some of the "sucessful" workbenches out there. You'd have to ask Frank Klaus for example, how he cross cuts, how he rough planes stock, how he edge joints or match planes.

Adam

Re: Clarification

mike recchione

>That's right. I find it faster and less fatiguing to be able to get over the cut. For stuff like crosscutting 1X12's, I always use the sawbench, which lives right next to the primary bench. It's got a much wider top than your average saw saw-horse, and has a slit on one end to make ripping easier. As you know, I don't have a chop saw or radial arm saw or table saw or bandsaw (I might eventually get a bandsaw, but haven't yet), so anything that gets sawed in my shop, gets sawed by hand.

I use the bench hook(s) and backsaw for narrower stock and shorter pieces, moldings, etc., and also for angled cuts or cuts where I only want to go a certain depth - like half-lap joints, etc. And that I do on top of the bench, not off the end. I use the bench hook almost like a miter box, with the saw almost parallel to the face of the work.

Of course, I use the bench for fancy curved cuts with a coping saw. I clamp a bird's mouth extension in my face vise for that, which brings the work up to about elbow height or even a little higher, and cut from below, with the coping saw set up to cut on the pull stroke.

The Workbench Book shows that Frank Klausz has a flip-up stop that he uses on the right side of the bench for crosscutting. He also has a tail vise. So somehow he gets past any negative interactions between the two. On the other hand, he has a boatload of machines in the shop, too, so I doubt the bench is the place where he does most of his sawing.

I'm curious about how you approach crosscutting on the bench. Do you keep the work horizontal or vertical? If horizontal, do you clamp it or just use bench hook(s) to hold it? Is the tip of the saw higher than the handle, i.e. do you approach the work from below or from above? If from above, what angle does the saw make with the work, more or less? Can you keep your wrist straight when you do this? Lots of questions, but you may (as has happened many times before) be opening my eyes to a new and better way of working.

I had a shop teacher who clamped the work vertically in the vise, and then squatted down and crosscut it from below. This seemed way too weird to me - I'd watched my grandfather and uncle, who did this stuff for a living, and they always used a low bench for sawing and held the work with their knees.

Re: Clarification

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>According to Klausz' video "Hand Tools," he uses a table saw for through cuts.

Pam

Re: Clarification

Dean J in MN

>

I'm curious about how you approach crosscutting on the bench.

I'm not Adam, but I sometimes play him on TV... :-)

Ok, I too use my bench for crosscutting so I'll give my 2 cents for nothing more than a data point.

Do you keep the work horizontal or vertical?

Horizontal

If horizontal, do you clamp it or just use bench hook(s) to hold it? I

Bench hooks

Is the tip of the saw higher than the handle, i.e. do you approach the work from below or from above?

Tip is lower. Most of the time that is. There are times I start the cut on the back of the board. For example, cutting off the end of a 4" square bench leg. I start that cut down both the face and rear edge line, then drift the blade down the face line. Flip the board, do that again and then allow the tip to be lower than my handle to finish the cut.

If from above, what angle does the saw make with the work, more or less? Can you keep your wrist straight when you do this?

Saw angle -- Good question, I'm thinking 45 or less most of the time. I should mention I use frame saws, not panel saws, for crosscutting.

My wrist is straight during the cut.

-Dean

Ditto

Adam Cherubini

>I guess Dean and I have read the same books. I can only say I typically crosscut at a lower angle. I saw at a 45 or so through the back corner then lower the handle until I nick the near corner. I don't always flip the board, depending on the accuracy required. In stances where I don't flip the board, I'll push a steeper angle and yeah, I probably break my wrist. Having a saw with the handle on the back of teh saw instead of the top is a big advantage. I think people stopped making good saw handles about 150 years ago.

The only time I crosscut on a horse is when the offcut can't be practically supported.

The thing I don't like or maybe understand is a better way of putting it, is how you (Mike) get a nice square cross cut with such a flat angle. I need to establish that cut through the thickness since I don't/can't naturally saw 90 through the thickness. So I create a slit through the thickness to guide the saw thereafter.

Adam

Re: Ditto

Dean J in MN

>

I guess Dean and I have read the same books.

Good chance that is true.

I can only say I typically crosscut at a lower angle. I saw at a 45 or so through the back corner then lower the handle until I nick the near corner.

Let me refine my sawing angle remark, I quoted what I would be cutting at for a pretty quick and dirty cross cut. Something like cross cutting rough lumber to workable stuff. The angle I use, like you Adam, depends on just how accurate I need to be. The more accurate I need to be the flatter I cut.

The thing I don't like or maybe understand is a better way of putting it, is how you (Mike) get a nice square cross cut with such a flat angle. I need to establish that cut through the thickness since I don't/can't naturally saw 90 through the thickness. So I create a slit through the thickness to guide the saw thereafter.

Same here, I have a hard time with the 90 through the thickness unless I have that kerf to guide me.

-Dean

Re: Ditto

Skip in Falls Church

>(As someone lately addicted to makeing saw handles) So what would a good saw handle be to you? I'm really interested - I think it would be fun to make a handle you would describe as good so I could compare it to the type of saw handles I'm familiar with. Maybe I could even write up a revie ...... um, ...... compar .... nah, probably not now that I think of it. :)

Skip

OK, I tried it.

mike recchione

>I started to work out the geometry on paper, starting with my bench height, adding adjustments for the thickness of the bench hook and the stock that I was cutting, the length of the saw, etc. and so on. And then I realized that I'm working from home today, and my home office is in my shop, and the workbench in question is about 18" from my elbow... senility is a wonderful thing.

So I took a break for two minutes and tried it. I was surprised to learn that it's not too bad (crosscutting off the end of the bench, that is). I'm not tall enough to manage a 45 degree angle, it's more like 30 degrees, but it's doable.

I will have to try it a little more to see if I like it better than using the saw bench. My initial impressions are that I still like being over the cut and being able to put my body weight to work on it, but who knows - maybe I'll become converted and there'll be more floor space where the saw bench used to be.

As far as the way I normally use the bench hook is concerned, I realize that my explanation may have been misleading. I don't keep the saw parallel to the top face of the stock for the entire cut. I start the cut at the far end, with the saw at the maximum angle it can get, then, once a plumb kerf has been established, move back and down. By the time I finish the cut, the saw is horizontal. One thing that this does is to give a very clean cut. The wood is completely supported under the cut, and both halves of the stock are supported. Knock wood, this has been very effective for a number of years.

Re: OK, I tried it.

Dean J in MN

>

So I took a break for two minutes and tried it. I was surprised to learn that it's not too bad (crosscutting off the end of the bench, that is). I'm not tall enough to manage a 45 degree angle, it's more like 30 degrees, but it's doable.

I did the same experiment when I got home this evening. My angles are 30 degrees and less. My 45 degree guess in my post above was a bad guess. (I clearly need a bench and saw at work!)

-Dean

Re: Second Mike's Procedure

Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi.

>I agree with Mike. I do 100% of my crosscutting and probably 75% of my ripping with handsaws and use a sawbench for most of it. Precision cuts such as tenon shoulders and narrow boards are cut on a bench hook but I find a sawbench much easier to use with respect to ergonomics and fatigue. I also keep my sawbench at the right end of the workbench so it is readily available. My sawbench is about 20" high, the top is about 14" wide and about 4' long with a slot for rip cuts down the middle.

Like many other woodworking skills, making perpendicular cuts is a matter of practice, positioning your body correctly and relying on your sense of plumb. A few swipes with a plane on the end grain cleans and up the cut.

Before I made the sawbench, I did try to use the benchtop for crosscutting but I found it awkward and slow. After using the sawbench for about 5 years, I can't imagine doing as much sawing as I do without it.

Jim

Re: and ditto!

Ted Shuck, Centennial, CO

>I am in complete agreement with Jim here, although I do 100% and 100% using hand saws. Making a proper saw bench made everything much easier for me. I can get over the wood to be sawn and get a lot more force behind the saw. I try to cut just wide of a line for precision crosscuts and plane to the line with a shooting board.

Ted

Bench Height

Rob in Peoria

>Apropos to the bench height for sawing discussion, I've had a new question come up about bench height for planing. I've heard again and again that you want the bench low enough to get your weight over, but not too low that it's hard on your back.

The discussion of Chris' Roubo bench has promted me to re-read that chapter in the Workbench Book and something jumped out at me. Taurule (sp?) has the bench set so high that he's practically pushing the plane with his chest.

Thoughts?