Electrolysis: Newbie questions

Re: Electrolysis: Newbie questions

Denis Ch�nard, Ottawa, Ont.

>First, washing soda does make a difference (I tried both).

The black stuff, you have to clean out. I use grey scotch-brite pads, and it works well.

As long as your anode isn't galvanized (don't ask me why) it'll work fine.

DC

explanation

bill tindall

>I have an article in the Articles section on what goes on with electrolysis. It will be useful in answering your questions. But to summarize, iron rusts by removing electrons from the iron, and adding oxygen, to make the rust. This is a multistep process with various iron compounds formed along the way. Electrolysis adds electrons back and removes oxygen, again in steps. Fundamental limitations prevent electrolysis from taking the rust all the way back to iron. Typically the process stops at a black iron oxide compound.

The stainless steel will not go away.

The heat and bubbles from electrolysis will strip some carbon dioxide from the baking soda and make washing soda.

Re: Electrolysis: Newbie questions

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>I am no expert, but here are a few thoughts on the subject:

In my experience, the distance between the anode and the rusted object affects the speed of the rust eradication. When I did a saw blade, I found myself moving the anode around to be closer to various parts of the blade as the process progressed.

I think that, ideally, some sort of flexible anode that could be arranged or bent to conform to the shape of the rusted object without touching it would increase the speed and effectiveness of the process.

I do not have anything needing derusting right now, but I have acquired a small SS tub from a busted deep fryer. I am thinking that I could use the whole container as the anode, with some sort of plastic rack insulating the bottom. If I get around tuit, I will post my experience.

BTW, I get some green crud build-up when I de-rust - maybe from disintegrating copper clamps from the charger? Anyway, in my experience, this needs to be wiped off periodically to permit the de-rerusting to proceed quickly.

Re: explanation

Steve Kubien

>Thanks Bill and others. Bill, I had a hard copy of your article in front of me, on the bench, as I went through the process. It was a great help. I will try to find some washing soda today (or the pool stuff). As it stands, I've got a pretty clean iron thanks to the info and help I've found here.

Again, thanks.

Steve Kubien

Re: Electrolysis: Newbie questions

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>A couple of ideas:

First, (probably more than obvious) make sure the anode and the cathode (the heirloom) do not touch while power is turned on, or your charger may "fail the smoke test" because it will short circuit.

Put your charger on a GFCI-protected circuit. It's all to easy to pull the charger off the bench and into the bucket of electrolyte. Water with soda ash in it conducts electricity much better than tap water, and all the outlets in your kitchen and bath protect you with a GFCI.

For plastic spacers, I have found the the whitle plastic "egg crate" fecessed fluorescent fixture light difusers (2' x 4') that are sold at the Borg work well. Further description if you haven't figured it out without a photo: These have a half inch square open grid of ribs, and are about 3/8" thick. Because they are fragile, and the Borg lets demented gorillas shop and work in their warehouses, you can often find busted ones that you might be able to buy at a significantly reduced price, depending on the depth of the dementia of the help you may or may not be able to find. They are easy to cut to whatever size and shape you need with hack saw, bandsaw, bowsaw, jigsaw or even Tijuana Speed Wrench.

Tijuana Speed Wrench? Whatsit?

Steve Kubien

>

Stainlees Steel Tub?

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>Don,

Something tell me that this IS NOT a good idea. Seems to me that the SS will conduct electricity and if something where to go a'foul you'd have a electricially charged tub, which I don't believe would be a good thing. Go with a plastic 5 gallon bucket instead for Saferys sake eh?.

Green curd? Clamps in the water? DO NOT!!!!! Let you clamps touch the water. Man somebody's gonna hurt here I can see it coming. Have your rods taller than the bucket by a good few inches. Take a board that will go across the top of the buchet, make some holes in it to pass the rods thru, and put you clamps ABOVE the board. This way your rods will stand up and not falling all over the place where they could inadvertantly come into contact with each other.

The only time I ever got green crud was when I was using new galvanized rods and for the first few cycles it was bubbling off.

Todd O.

Re: Electrolysis: Newbie questions

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>Steve,

Your trickle charger should work fine, tho I have zapped plenty using a 12 volt charger. I myself mainly use a trickle charger tho.

Using a lag bolt? How are you suspening this in the tank?

The black color is normal. the metal is dicolored from the rust is all and that you can't remove as far as I know.

I tried Baking Soda one time and as far as I'm concerned it didn't work worth a toot, tho it did work a little. I see it as a complete waste of time to use it.

Use more or less baking soda? Hard to say as you didn't tell us what size tank you was using. I use a 5 gallon plastic bucket with probably 4.5 gallons of water in it and 1 cup of Washing Soda. I believe that .5 of a cup would work fine, but I use a full cup just to be sure.

HTH,

Todd O.

One more thing Steve

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>As soon as you remove the tool from the bucket are you rinsing it with boiling water? I sure makes all the difference in the world. Once it evaporates dry hit it with the wire brushes and wire wheel and the rust will come off like dust.

If you start to brush while it is still wet all you'll do is make rust mud. Wait the few extra seconds until it is dry and all will be fine.

Todd O.

Re: A Big Ball Peen Hammer

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>

I was taught that the proper term is "Ford wrench"

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>by a Chevy guy, obviously.

NICE!!!!!

Steve Kubien

>

Re: One more thing Steve

Steve Kubien

>Todd,

I've got a small (2 gallon?) pail with about 2 1/4cup of sodas in it. As for the lag bolt anode...The head of it was out of the water and that is where the clamp went on. Since then, I bolted 3, 5x5 butt hinges (stainless) together so they fold like a screen. The item to be zapped is suspended inside this set up so the line-of-site is in all directions. BTW, the cathode has been submersed. Any problems with that?

As for the boiling water....oops, I missed that part. I've just rinsed under cold water while using a Scotch Brite pad and then throughly dried the item. Why use boiling water?

Thanks for the info so far everybody!

Steve Kubien

Re: Stainlees Steel Tub?

mike recchione

>The stainless steel pot for an electrode is a great idea, but it might be a good idea to put the stainless stell pot inside of a plastic bucket, which would insulate the outside.

Re: One more thing Steve

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>Steve,

I get the "odes" mixed up, so bear with me.

both of the rods should be immersed with a portion of each sticking up out of the water so you can clamp your battery chargers clamps to them. You DO NOT want your clamps to be underwater.

Always remember to put the negative terminal of your charger to the rod that has the tool on it.

The easiest way I've come up to remember this is: Rust on our tools is a No-No. No is a Negative, thus the rod with the rusty tool wired to it gets the negative charger clamp.

Loose that small buchet and get a 5 gallon one.

Why use boiling water? Something t do with chemical reactions is all I know. The rust goes in the bucket as rust, during zapping it is transformed in something else, and the boiling water transforms it it into something else again(I think) Sure makes a difference with it coming off tho. Try it, you see it, you'll like it, I garr-en-teee. ;~) Using the Scotch brite pads is pish-posh. A light going over with a fine wire brush, not the heavy guage thick heavy welders wire brushes is all you need. I've found those coarse wire brushes to be too coarse to be of any use.

Also, my wire wheel, which is mouted on a 1725 rpm motor is a straight wire fine wheel as well. You don't need a heavy twisted wire wheel. With a fine wheel the rust will fall right off and not scratch your tool to death. Truth be told you don't need a wire wheel as you can do it all by hand, but I find it faster. Once zapped I can clean the bulk of the rust off say a #5 in about 1 minute with my wire wheel. Than I take my brushes to clean out in the places that the wire wheel can't reach.

when I go to flea markets I keep my eyes peeled for wire brushed of different shapes. I have round ones, flat, ones, triangular ones, etc, etc, for getting into nooks, crannies, crevices and holes.

I sure is a treat to be able to turn out a screw, nut, or bolt once it has been zapped with ease and without damaging the head. I have a bunch of various flea-market 25 cent screwdrivers and wrenches handy for just such a purpose.

Todd O.

Who is Passionate about zapping.

Re: F.O.R.D.

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Yeah, I know, "Found On Road Dead" or "Fix Or Repair Daily." Got any of those GM Junk Bonds for sale?

You forgot one...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>f*#ked on race day... ;^)

Thanks for the tips, Sir Wm.

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>It is about time I brought the outdoor electrical outlets (I electrolocize in the car port) up to code by replacing them with GFCI fixtures.

I had thought of using one of those rubber/plastic mats sold for the bottom of refrigerator vegetable bins, but I like the light fixture egg-crate idea.

Re: Stainlees Steel Tub?

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>Yes Todd, the tub will be electrified. With a full 12 volts. Just like the anode, the cathode, and the rusty treasure typically are. I do not see that as a noteworthy safety issue.

Rods? What rods are you talking about? Inquiring minds want to know!

Rods

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>Don,

When I say "Rods" I amctually speaking of the anode and cathode. One of them gets the tool wired to it and the Negative clamp of the battery charger, and the other just gets the Positive clamp of the battery charger. I never can remember which is which, so I just call them "Rods" even tho mine are actally flat and not round.

Todd O.