Bedrock question

Re: Bedrock question

Tom MacGregor

>I have two V&B 903's and a 905. They are well made planes but do not, as I had believed they would, have Bedrock style frogs. I don't know the model numbers but it appears that it was only V&B's "Lincoln" series with the Bedrock frogs - not all of them. I have also seen photos that that show the Winchester Bedrocks to be numbered much like the Keen Kutters - look for a single "W" - W4, W5, etc.

Re: Bedrock question

Bob Hackett

>You mentioned Keen Kutter.What`s your feeling about these planes as compared to Stanley?

Seems most folks are after Stanley planes and that drives the price up to beyond what some of us feel is reasonable,same with the Winchester crowd.What I`m looking for is an alternative that I can steer folks to.

I know that I can`t afford Bedrocks and was surprised to be able to get a user grade #605 at a reasonable price(less than $50).I was equally surprised to find that the performance wasn`t noticeably better than my tuned up #5 which cost $10.

This got me to thinking that maybe the Stanley,especially bedrock, thing is just alittle more hype than fact.I know that Sargent planes go for alot less up here and seem to perform at least as well if not better.

Just wondering what the options are for the user grade bottom feeders out there now that anything with Stanley on it is getting scarce and relatively expensive.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Bedrock question

Derek

>The KeenKutter planes were made by Stanley - I'm not sure if all of them were, but I think so. The bedrock versions I have seen are all the round sided variety. I have a #5 jack (K5 as I recall). It does not perform any better than a pre-war Bailey I have but the Bailey has a heavier and stiffer sole which seems to make a difference in a jack plane.

I don't see people talking much about sole stiffness,

but my perception is that it does make a difference. I can't explain it, but I feel it.

Re: Bedrock question

Richard R

>Bob,

I've always wondered why there are some who feel that Bedrock's being superior is hype. They do cost a bit more. And yes, a trade-off of the easier adjustment is the fact that the depth of cut changes. I say, so what? Grab the knob, make a few turns, and you're done. Not so with Bailey style planes. Still off a bit with the mouth width? Ok, now remove the blade, loosen the two screws, adjust the frog (keeping everything square and parallel, of course, which is more difficult because the machining isn't generally as good), tighten the screws, replace the blade, etc. etc. Hopefully you got it right and can get back to work. Not right? Alright,repeat above steps.

Some may feel that the lower cost and greater availability negate the negatives, so to speak. I have a Record #5 that will make a shaving every bit as good as my 606. To me, that's not the point. The better fit, finish, and machining are well worth the price of admission. Maybe I've forced myself into believing this, but they just "feel" better in use...

Just my $.02

RR

Re: inexpensive planes

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>To me, a Bedrock 605-1/4 might seem expensive. But you might be surprised at the number of people that would buy that plane with less than half a day's pay. I think the Notre Dame football coach makes over a million dollars a year, so for him it would be less than a quarter of a days pay. These planes are seriously cheap right now, and they are not being made any more. There was a 604C at the Chesaning meet for $65, and I didn't buy it because I only had $70 with me, and I wanted a few other items. How dumb is that? ;) There was a 607 there for $110, had a hang hole drilled in it. These are seriously cheap planes. I think the most I have paid for one of my Bedrock planes was $75, less than a day's pay. You can regularly get Bedrock planes on ebay for less than $200. I figure I better get while the getting is good, as they will only increase in value, unless the whole economy goes down the tubes. Sure, I can buy $5 Bailey pattern planes and fix them up, but not sure why I would want to.

Re: inexpensive planes

Bob Hackett

>There`s no doubt that the price of the Bedrocks is climbing and probably will continue to do so for some time.I`m not interested in an investment here I`m interested in a good working tool at a reasonable price.The folks I`m talking about don`t have the money to spend on a Bedrock or a good collector quality #1-8 for that matter(well,maybe a #5).

To draw a parallel,I know that an Everlasting chisel is no where near as good a tool as a Swan or a Whitherby yet they go for 2 to 3 times the money.The folks who buy them buy them for the Stanley name not for the kind of work they can do with them.

What I`m looking for is a direction to steer a young aspiring WWer when he says "I sure would like to have afew old planes like yours but I can`t find/afford the Stanleys.What else will work?"

I tell them to stay away from the Dunlaps and Made in USA planes unless they want to convert them to scrubs.

In your estimation where should they go from there?I know what I tell them but was wondering what other`s experiences were.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Bedrock question

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Bob, I don't want to quote P. Leach w/o his permission so I'll just say that after reading his
introduction to the BedRock series of planes I am left with the impression that he considers the BedRock design change to be one primarilly motivated by marketing concerns, not engineering advances.

Ergo, you're observation seems to be right on target. The late G. Wallace might have said something like, "There ain't a dimes worth of difference 'tween the two!"

Re: a working plane

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>There really is not much difference in performance between brands of planes or types until you get into big dollars. There is a big difference in performance between a Clark & Williams coffin plane and an old rotted and split and worn out coffin plane you find at a flea market. But there is very little difference in performance between a Stanley, Sargent, Keen Kutter (made by both Stanley and Sargent I think) Ohio Tools, or older Craftsman planes. There is very little difference in performance from one Bailey pattern plane to the next, and not much difference between Bailey and Bedrock pattern planes. I think the older ones up through the fifties and sixties certainly are machined better than the later ones made in the 80's and 90's. And I think it could be argued that pre WW2 planes are machined better than post WW2.

My advice to someone starting out is to get a shovel. Dig under the rocks until you find something. Figuratively speaking, of course. Country auctions and flea markets, NOT ebay. Read about tuning and sharpening planes beforehand; on or off line. This gives you an idea what to look for. Look for planes that are not rusted so badly that they will be hard to disassemble, have all the parts, and are not cracked or broken. If you are in Maine, they should be able to find 4's and 5's for less than $20. If they can't afford that, my advice would be one of three choices; A) get off the couch, B) go back to school, or C) get a job. And perhaps they could do all three, in that order. Okay, I am not really that harsh ;) I appreciate the job I have, and work to do, and there's always the chance I might have to sell my planes in order to feed my family, so I wish to retain the proper level of humility. But really; if you can't afford $20 for a plane, you better look for a different hobby; it will soon be way more expensive than that.

Re: a working plane

Richard R

>I agree with Moses; tell them to wait until they can afford a good quality tool. That way they'll only cry once...

RR

Re: a working plane

paul womack

>Read about tuning and sharpening planes beforehand; on or off line.

Given that rapid developement in knowledge, fostered by forums like this, I'd recommend on-line.

It's free, and has better and more detailed advice, from a wider range of viewpoints, than anything in print.

In print you have (AFAIK) Dunbar, Hack, Sam Allen and David Charleworth.

I'd rate all but DC well out of date w.r.t. state of the art.

BugBear

Re: a working plane

Bob Hackett

>You may or may not be surprised to find out that as more and more folks go online that auctions of smaller (mailable)items are going sky high even up here in Maine.

I saw an add in Uncle Henry`s(a local classified)that offered planes for sale and mentioned Bedrocks.Since the number was a local call I inquired about them and was told they would go for"market value".The fellow called back later that nite and explained to me that while all his planes were usually assembled they all had correct parts and were fully functional.Price for a 604,$190.I told him I`d pass(as in pass out).

At the Fort Andross flea market(the closest to my house) any Stanley plane starts at $50.Seems the tool guys were looking thru everyone`s stuff at set up and skimming the cream and bringing it to thier booth and marking it up as the doors opened.If it didn`t sell at that price at the flea then it surely would when the posted it on the `bay.Broken rosewood totes for Stanley planes are going for $5 each there now.

Last time I went to Elmer`s Barn there were all kinds of rusty old Stanley planes and they were all priced higher than the new offerings by Leon Robbins he also had displayed($125 for a pitted #4 1/2,$150 for a rusted #8 with a used up iron).

What I tell new WWers that want to get into the craft by way of rehabbing tools(mostly so they have an understanding of how and why a tool works)is to buy an old transitional plane.These are still going for cheap(less than $10 for a good one,usually minus an iron+chipbreaker that was sold seperately)and offer the chance to get a feel for both iron and wood planes in one go.Once being walked thru the rehab they can usually fly on thier own or make a decision that a new,high dollar,tool is more for them.Either way they have a nice plane that they brought back themselves(with alittle help)and an expansion of thier skill set.

Mainely,Bob

PS-I talked to a local antique dealer recently who had just got back from a trip to PA and brought a load of "primatives" from the farm country/PA dutch area to be sold during the summer.Seems most of the dealers he knows are importing from out of state as Maine has been pretty well picked over.

We both find it somewhat strange that now the dealers from Maine must travel south,nearer to the folks who buy the items and then the customers travel north to buy the things that came from thier own backyard only to pay outrageous prices and have it shipped back to pretty near where it came from to begin with.

Re: a working plane

Mike McDaniel

>A plane is a plane? Buy the best? Restore and learn? All of these are good advise, and good options. Not all people are built the same, that is to say, to each their own. Each person has his/her own way of attacking the same problem. Experience tends to be the best teacher. I'm sure all of us have made mistakes along the way, concerning our tools. I think the best advice might be, just get a plane, use it, and grow your knowledge. After a while, you will begin to know what a good plane feels like. Planes are not that complicated. Technique, practice and the will to learn, are the main factors of good woodworking.

Mike McDaniel,

WV

Re: a working plane

Todd Hughes

>I am really surprised to hear that good planes are so uncommon and expensive in maine, i have always thought that the new england states were in the heart of old tool heaven. Around here, [Md. De. NJ. Penn] common stanley planes are...well common and pretty easy to pick up on the cheap.In the past two weeks I bought at the flea market three 4's, a 5, and a 6. Paid $8,$10 and $20 for the 4s [$20 one had them throw in a nice set of auger bits], $5 for the 5 and $25 for the 6 which was an older clean one.Then wed. at auction got a nice 6 and a 7c along with a disston back saw and some other stuff for $20 the lot. Stood next to my friend as he bought a 39 rabbet plane, a few molding planes and some chisels for $20 too.This was the minimal bid and no one bid against us...Of course i see some planes priced high like you talk about mostly in Antique stores and of course at the end of the day at the flea market the tools left would be ones that are priced to high. I really think there are still lots of planes that can be found cheap in most places if you just look. On ebay you see lots of planes like common no.4 and 5s that get sold for $25-$35,[or less] hey if these sellers werent buying them for less they wouldn't be selling them on ebay for that

If I only had so much money to spend on rust for myself I would learn what to buy and it's prices and buy stuff for me ...and stuff to sell on ebay and take that money and re invest it into more tools for myself and to sell.Would imagine if done like this you could get a pretty good shop set up for an inital investment of $50 and some work....Todd

Re: a working plane

Richard R

>Bob,

Like Todd, I'm really surprised that the market up there is drying up like that. I think it'll cool down (the increasing prices, that is) after a while. When enough people decide that the prices are too high and the sales dwindle. I'm a user, not a collector per se. If the asking price for a particular plane were, say, 50 dollars shy of the cost of a LN, well, I'm shelling out the extra cash. I mean, we (the woodworkers) are "paying the price" for the recent trends. Don't really know what to do except make a decision about what I really want and bite the bullet. I don't think I'd enjoy WW'ing as much if I was constantly making concessions.

A good friend and co-worker has expressed an interest in starting a shop of his own. He's been hemmin' and hawin' about a tablesaw for over a year, but can't get himself to open his wallet. He just about faints at the thought of laying out 300 bucks for a hand plane. But a few months ago, he bought a new F150, loaded. Doesn't bat an eyelash at the $500.00 monthly gouge, and he lost his butt as soon as he drove it off the lot, to boot. That truck's not making him any money, either, and its value goes down every day. Spends 4 or 5 bucks a day on Starbucks, and thinks nothing of it. Huh? I don't think I'll ever understand that kind of mentality.

RR