Mr. Lee let the cat out of the bag, finally :) *LINK*

Holy Swiss sharpening jig

Eric Hedberg

>talk about bells and whistles (or should I say traffic lights). Looks like something out of the Star Wars model prop shop. Rob, I'll be interested to see what price point you can hit on that baby. Now if you can find away to eliminate the user it would probably work perfectly ;-)

Re: Holy Swiss sharpening jig

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Well, since Rob has been so open on another forum.

It is actually very easy to adjust and use, and will be very comfortable too (the latter not often taken into account with honing guides). It will become THE way to produce back bevels.

It represents a tremendous advancement in capability, but I'm still nagging them about even more "bells and whistles." I've complained loud and hard that I very much want to see side stabilization blocks for narrow and triangular shaped chisels (so they can't shift), and I want a precise means to set skew angle for the #140 and 98/99 type blades. Then this guide will cover almost every conceivable hand honing need for flat blades.

If you want to see those features sooner, rather than at some indefinite point in the future (and they can be easily integrated with add on components at any time), join your voice with mine.

Lyn, I'd be glad to join in your chorus

Eric Hedberg

>Unfortunately, Lyn, I've been unable to get my hands on a prototype and feel uncomfortable making comment without actually seeing or trying the product. So.....if you happen to have an extra one lying around why don't you send it on to me and I'll give it a try;-) Eric (Who wants to know how well it will work on his spokeshave blades)

Re: Holy Swiss sharpening jig

Ted Shuck, Centennial, CO

>Wendell and Lyn,

Thanks for posting this information about the new LV sharpening jig. I have an Eclipse-type jig that I rarely use, precisely because it has problems with many of the tools that I hone. If the new LV jig had the improvements that Lyn has suggested, this would probably push me over the edge to buy one. The ability to accurately hold skewed plane irons and narrow chisels would make a difference to me.

Listening Rob?

Thanks,

Ted who has a birthday coming up...

Re: Holy Swiss sharpening jig

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Thanks,

Just so there is no confusion, it can hold both. I just want a means to set the skew angle with more precision and consistency, and I want a means to hold the narrower chisels with greater certainty they will stay in place. I really want these things as I have been so disappointed by the problems so many other guides have had in these areas.

Regardless, though, this will be a wonderful guide and I think folks are going to be very pleased in using it whether or not the additions come to pass. I just want it to be perfect (or at least meet all my needs), but I am not the one who has to be concerned with how much it will cost (though in my opinion it is cheaper to have an expensive guide that will do almost everything, than have to purchase a second or third guide for special purposes).

I really am rather in awe of the innovative thought the designer put into this one, and the interest the entire team took in attending to all sorts of details most other guides entirely overlook.

Re: Holy Swiss sharpening jig

Bob Fawcett

>I have one of the current LV jigs. I purchased it Feb 21 this year. I have used it to hone the 2 irons for my Low Angle Jack, an iron for a Stanley block plane, an iron for a Stanley #4 and maybe a couple of chisels. I don't think I abused it. I didn't do anything in particular to protect the roller, but I don't think the way I used it was any different than others would do. I followed the directions in the package. The brass roller still runs smoothly, but now has 1/64" of play. I measured it with my dial caliper. I can hold the roller all the way as close as possible to the area where the iron beds, then move as far away as I can with my fingers and measure 1/64" with my caliper. (It reads in fractions).

At this point it still works fine. I guess some of the grit from my stones must have gotten between the roller and shaft. Since the jig is so young, I have to wonder how long it can last.

I have taught myself to sharpen chisels without a jig. I don't know if I can do the same with a plane iron. I know I couldn't do a micro bevel without a jig of some sort.

Please don't take this as just a complaint. I hope it is constructive. I would love to see some method of keeping stray grit out of the area between the roller and the shaft. Brass is soft and steel harder. I believe that the roller has worn. As I said the rolling action is still smooth, so the wear must be even. I put a few drops of oil on top of the clip that secures the roller while holding the roller vertical before the first use. I clean the roller with a rag after each stone.

I think from now on I will dunk the whole jig in water or kerosene and blow it dry with compressed air to try to be sure there is no stray grit in the wrong places.

Fingers in ears...

Rob Lee

>....na na na na na na na na na na na!

Re: Holy Swiss sharpening jig

Rob Lee

>Yes - but the problem is to avoid MacGyvering it...

One could conceivably keep adding functions and features to the point where it's no longer good value for the right number of people.

The tooling on this was very complex. At 6 figures - we have to sell a lot of these just to recover our cost...and you can't do that if the thing is $100...

We will do a skew jig - but it'll be an option, and made by a different process (likely an extrusion and machined).

There's a "sweet spot" to hit with products like this...and I think we stamped all over it.

Cheers-

Rob

Re: Holy Swiss sharpening jig

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>Rob, I am ready to buy one. Get the darn thing on the market!

(and with the more Lyn-recommended features, the better).

Re: Fingers in ears...

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>hmph....

I'm just thinking of all those plane blades I have that need honing...

Re: Expanding function

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Your entire crew knows I disagree on this. IMO, offering two stop blocks to fit on the front dovetail would be a very realistic option (at the extra cost that you wish) that will provide a real world increase in function that will be very meaningful to those of us who have triangular shaped Japenese dovetail chisels, your own detail chisels, small 1/8 - 3/16 bench chisels, and even some round shafted skew chisels.

You also know that I'm not speaking theoretically, but from actual experience. This is a problem with a lot of guides, including your own.

The Veritas Mk. II is/will be an outstanding honing guide, I just want it to be wonderful for the widest variety of flat blades that many of us use.

By the way, I'll take my stop blocks in brass, not wood :-)

As for skew capabilities. I hardly see why a new guide is in order. What the soon to be released unit needs is a secondary (and yes, optional at extra cost) skew setting jig that mounts to the front dovetail. There should be more than enough room to fit a skewed #140 or the smaller 98/99 blades in the existing guide.

I'm not wishing to discourage anyone from purchasing this new guide, quite the contrary, I think it will be the most comfortable and versatile hand honing guide available, and I would strongly encourage almost everyone to consider obtaining one. But, it can offer a meaningful (for many) increase in versatility with the availability of a few options.

old style roller wear

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Hi Bob,

I imagine Rob will weigh in on this one, as he will know what the LV manufacturing specs and wear projections are.

I did go look at mine, which is several years old and it used to see a fair amount of use before I got the powered systems. My roller has way more than 1/64 inch of play with respect to the shaft, and it has never bothered me or seemed to result in any identified inaccuracies. I can't say if that amount of play was there from the beginning or developed over time, but near as I can tell, it has essentially no effect on the function. Personally, I've never worried about it, and I'm not going to in the future either.

Re: old style roller wear

Bob Fawcett

>Thanks Lyn,

I did play with it some before the first use. It didn't have this kind of play to start with.

I won't worry about it anymore. It still works great on my plane irons.

Re: Holy Swiss sharpening jig

paul womack

>One could conceivably keep adding functions and features to the point where it's no longer good value for the right number of people.

Your phrasing clearly implies that one shouldn't.

Quite right. The market needs a jig that addresses the bulk of the needs of the bulk of the people. For very many people that's bevel edge chisels from 1/8" up to 1 1/2", and plane blades from 1 1/2" up to 2 3/8", spokeshave blades and metallic plough plane blades.

Yes, I'm aware there are "other blades", and I have several of them.

I am resigned that a jig with enough gizmosity to sharpen the "fancy" blades will add cost (and undeisrable complexity in the bulk market). If I choose to use esoteric planes, I guess I'm going to have to buy an esoteric jig. Seems only right.

BugBear (with the jig from hell)

Re: Expanding function

Rob Lee

>Ah - you mis-understood... we will do a second projection jig for skews... not a seperate guide...

We had initially discussed supplying two projection jigs with the base unit...but that would've added another 20% to the cost. Not good value for most.

With respect to tall narrow chisels this is not a "problem" with most jigs - it's that such chisels fall outside the design envelope of a jig. With all of the variable geometry of edge tools, and the inconsistencies in reference surfaces (tapers, paralellograms etc) it's just not practical to accomodate everything. We do not have the option of solving all problems at any cost. There is no panacea here.

Cheers -

Rob

Re: old style roller wear

Rob Lee

>Bob -

If it bothers you - we have replacement rollers and are glad to ship one out - N/C.

The use of brass and steel are deliberate design features. We have to have materials with a wear differential - so that WHEN grit gets between the wheel and the axle - it's the wheel that wears.

The fit between wheel and axle is a "cosmetic" thing... the clearance will not affect the repeatability of the jig geometry. If the wheel fit closely - one takes the risk that the wheel could seize when grit gets in it. It's a fine balance.

Cheers -

Rob

Re: old style roller wear

Bob Fawcett

>Thanks Rob.

Whats the best lubricant to use? I put a few drops of honing oil on the axle while holding it vertically so gravity would make it run down between the axle and roller. Is this good practice?

I'll take you up on the roller. A spare is a good thing.

As I sit here expanding my waistline reading all

Eric Hedberg

>this and I think to myself "What a Wonderful World". That we can be so fussy about new jigs for the plethora of new/old tools for us is pretty cool. We can even "ding" the people bringing us these new toys before we electronically open our pockets and place our overnight internet orders. Yeah, woodworking life is pretty good. Eric (Feeling very philosophical and reflective today)

Re: Holy Swiss sharpening jig

Ernie Miller Topeka

>I understand you our need for more bells and whistles but is it really right for you to abuse Rob by inlisting every one to try and make changes befor he is into production? you get somthing better and emediantly use politics to extract more? If we want it and it can be made reasonable he will do so in his one time frame. then he will ship the additional parts out to us for a reasonable charge. You are totaly abusing you privaliges! ROB I"M WITH THEM IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO SOMTHING DO IT RIGHT! Thanks Rob

Re: Holy Swiss sharpening jig

Rob Lee

>Hi Ernie -

Lyn's just twisting my tail... he always provides an honest asessement of his perspective on products. Overall - that kind of frank feedback has helped a number of other manufacturers too...

Certainly - we don't always agree, but we always listen to each other, and have respect for each other's capabilities...

Lyn has no axe to grind here - and really doesn't benefit personally from the work (and it IS work) that he does. I know he's sensitive to perceptions of bias or impartiality... and I think it's good for him be the voice of dissonance once in awhile....

No worries here!

Cheers -

Rob

spokeshaves

Clay Craig

>Looking at the settings for 'short blade extension' seems promising for spokeshave irons!

Clay

Re: Holy Swiss sharpening jig

Glenn Madsen

>"Lyn has no axe to grind here -"

He wants it to do axes TOO?! ;-)

Re: Expanding function

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>With regards to precision skew settings, what I ask for is the capabilty, that it be announced (which you just did) and that it appear in a timely fashion. Given the delays in this project, it is a shame that such an option isn't available for evaluation at the time folks make purchase a decision on the new guide, whether or not they choose to obtain such an option at the time of their initial purchase. The guide itself has almost achieved vapor wear status, given the delays (not unlike the write up of my second investigation), and it would be good for folks to know that a similar delay won't occur with respect to achieving precision skew settings.

Most likely many won't need the skew capabilities, but then this guide comes along rather late in the markct and most people already have a guide of some sort, if they want one. I suspect many who purchase this guide will be augmenting at least one existing guide, and for this crowd, the ability to deal with a wider range of blades will be meaningful, and that includes skew blades and narrow chisels.

You reply, "With respect to tall narrow chisels this is not a "problem" with most jigs - it's that such chisels fall outside the design envelope of a jig."

I disagree on both points (BTW, I though you preferred the "guide" nomenclature). It is a problem with the NUSS/QPSS carriage, it is a problem the original Veritas Guide, it is a problem with the Tormek flat blade holder, it is a problem with the Stanley and General Guides, it is a problem with the "no name" guide that Highland Hardware sells and Garret Wade used to sell, and the list could go on. However, it is not a problem with the FastTrack guide (to give one example), because they make provision for the very sort of side blocks I have been trying so hard to get you guys to include.

You go on to reply "With all of the variable geometry of edge tools, and the inconsistencies in reference surfaces (tapers, paralellograms etc) it's just not practical to accomodate everything. We do not have the option of solving all problems at any cost. There is no panacea here."

I find this rather blustery. Of course we don't look for you to offer a guide that will fit every concievable tool,nor at any cost, but I at least do find it a reasonable expectation for it to work optimally with common place flat blades, including those you commonly offer in your catalogs. Narrow chisels are commonplace and very useful tools. You can obtain chisels in the 1/16 to 1/4inch range from your own catalog, L-N, from a range fo Japanese tool suppliers, etc. I use small dovetail chisels all the time. I know from direct experience, and I suspect many others do as well, that guides that are designed to hold wide blades with top and bottom clamping do not securely hold narrow and/or triangular chisels. It is all too easy for the chisel to shift in the guide, no matter how hard you clamp them down (there is also the problem that such clamping often distorts the clamping rails and can effect geometry). This is entirely alleviated by having adjustable shoulder blocks that help maintain postioning, even though they do not provide much in the way of any clamping. This can be accomplished on the FastTrak as one example, and could be so easily integrated into the Veritas Mk. II using the front dovetail that is used to mount the setting guide (just remove the setting plate--as you must do anyway, then slide on two suport shoulders to lock the narrow blade into position). Such a method is easy to implement, can be made available as an option so you can keep the price down, and is effective regardless of the shape of the blade cross section (it would work from round to square with everthing in between). This is a practical solution (I know, I've implemented it) and while I won't use such expansive words as panacea, I can claim it greatly increases the utility of honing guides of this general type.

If I wasn't saying this now, I'd be saying this later.

Re: Holy Swiss sharpening jig

Ernie Miller Topeka

>I know you are taking advantage of him but for him to use his powers to put the whole World Wide Web aginst you just isn't fair. I think I want one of them so I'll put it in my wish list and e-mail the wife down the hall to get it ordered.