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Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

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Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#1

Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

mike recchione

>I've been following the discussions on workbench design and configuration with sort of accademic interest up until a few weeks ago, when I noticed that my primary bench's top is beginning to self-destruct. This was my first bench - I built it with a minimum of tools and even less knowledge. It's a miracle it has lasted as long as it has (7 years of, at times, fairly heavy use), given all the mistakes I made. One of the mistakes was buying a used slab from a restaurant supply store to use as the top; another was not jointing the bottom of the slab properly. Yet another was fastening it to the base firmly at four points, without allowing for seasonal movement. Like I said, it's a miracle it didn't try to pull itself apart before. This winter it has given up the fight and is delaminating almost right down the middle.

While it's still more or less usable and might be salvaged - the front part is still about 12" wide and has remained flat - I'm considering using this opportunity to make a bench that incorporates some of the last seven years experience.

I've been reading and considering the discussion(s) of vises, and have been leaning towards a configuration with the only vise being at the left face, i.e. no vise of any kind at the right end. I haven't decided whether to go with an all-out Nicholson style bench, nor exactly what sort of face vise I'll use. But my question is about the tail vise.

I've gradually weaned myself from using my end vise for face jointing or smoothing over the years - it's just as easy to use a stop of one kind or another for this. (I haven't done this for philosophical reasons, it's just that I went with a cheap quick-release vise for the end vise, and it sags when it's open wide - so sometimes it's just too much trouble to find the right thickness shim for the top of the vise face). And there are times that I've wished I had that end of the bench free. So I had more or less settled on this design until one activity that has really been facillitated by the end vise occurred to me: Thicknessing.

When I'm taking a bunch of 3/4" boards down to 1/2" with the scrub, this tends to be a very low finesse, high energy activity. (Kind of like extended ripping sessions). Since my bench is away from any wall, I can clamp the board in my end vise and work it from both sides without repositioning the board.

I suppose I could use the L-shaped stop arrangement that I sometimes use for face jointing and smoothing, and always work towards the left-back. But that would slow me down. So my question is: How do you do this? Do you wish you had a tail vise when you do it?

(Sorry for the long build up to such a simple question :-) )

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#2

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>What I find useful in those cases is to use thin wedges to hold the work between two stops.

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#3

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hey Mike!

I don't think you'll miss the tail vise much, Mike. It's not necessary to plane in both directions (+/- 45 degrees say), though I've done the same thing.

One of the realities of workbenches is that they do dictate how you work and can limit your capabilities. That's one reason why I remain so interested in this subject and critical of designs, and books on the subject.

If you couldn't stand having your bench change the way you scrub (perfectly understandable) you could set a right hand planing stop so you would have L's on both sides (if that makes any sense).

When I spoke to the guys at Wmsburg about this very subject they said "its just what you're used to". I think you'd find that you wouldn't miss a tail vise if you didn't/couldn't have one. Ditto for the right hand stop.

Let me know if you need any help.

I'll be at Pennsbury this Sunday if anybody is in the area. Its "Charter Day" and I'm pretty sure admission is free. We're moving back into the joinery and setting up shop for the season so feel free to drop in a try a bench without a tail vise or try a wooden twin screw vise. The new 17th century planes are pretty kick @ss and worth a spin.

Adam

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#4

Bench Screw ??

john jesseph

>For lack of a better place to ask this, how are the wooden screws let into the benches and faces at Williamsburg? I have the wood to make my bench, and some good photos from Williamsburg, along with rough dimensions, but I haven't gotten a good handle on the vice screw specifics...

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#5

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

Dennis McDonaugh

>Mike, just an observation. It sounds like you have changed the way you work because of a cheap vice? Sounds like a good tail vice would be a good investment for you. Just a note. I have a good end vice (doesn't sag) and clamp stock I'm planing with the end vice and bench dogs. I'm thinking of replacing the end vice with a tail vice for the following reasons.

The tail vice provides only one location for a bench dog. The dogs holes on the edge of my bench are 6" apart which is no problem because my vice opens up to almost a foot. However, I find it inconvienient to be limited to six inch increments by the dog hole spacing. If I had a tail vice with 3" dog hole spacing, I'd have a lot more options clamping to the bench top.

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#6

Re: Bench Screw ??

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>John, I have not seen the underside of the Nicholsons at Williamburg, but I have seen a Nicholson copy. In this case, the bench screw nut was screwed to the back of the apron, just below the bench top with a clearance hole in the apron. If you are planning on purchasing your bench screw, I would advise this approach, as opposed to tapping the apron, since this would allow re-use of the nut on a different bench in the future. If you have your own tap, then I would tap the apron, making sure it is thick enough for proper thread engagement.

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#7

Re: Bench Screw ??

john jesseph

>That's a good idea, makes it a bit simpler than I was trying to make it, in addition to the fact I can make the bench and fit the screw later. I am planning to buy the screw. I am building a new shop with the next 18 months, and don't want to fit the screw 'til I get to the new shop.

Here's a view of Mack Headley's bench. This is exactly what I am going for, bench-wise.


img

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#8

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

Todd Stock

>Not a maven, but I think it's worth finding someone with a bench that has a properly designed tail vise and trying it out before deciding whether post-1750 improvements are really just unnecessary complications. You might also take a look at how a skilled user handles the lack of a functional tail vise. It's really all about how you work, versus anyone else's notions of how you should work, right?

Re: Face vises as tail vises - using a metal face vise as a tail vise is problematic IME. The traditional tail vise (wood or metal vise screw; wooden frame structure) or the newer plate & screw versions are optimized for the type of load applied, while metal face vises are not. A deep metal vise with lots of height above the screw and guide rods is a desirable characteristic in a face vise; however, it's making the distortion problem worse when used as a tail vise.

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#9

Or....Norm's Endvise?!?!

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>I hesitate to bring this up since mentioning Norm Abrams is considered sacrilegious. However, if I were to ever desire a bench with a tailvise-like feature, (ie for clamping stuff between dogs)I would use the design that Norm used in the workbench that he built in the very first season of the show. The bench screw directly moves a block (with dogholes) that is guided with tongues on either side of the block. No offset. No Rube-Goldberg mechanism. No possibility of future sagging. Pure simplicity. The only potential disadvantage over the more traditional tailvise is that without the offset, the dog holes with be a little bit further from the edge of the workbench, but still much closer than what a Record-style vise would give.

Go to your library and check out his first book,The New Yankee Workshop. Ignore the rest of the bench, but take a look at the end vise.

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#10

Re: Tail vises

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I was rewatching the Kingshott dovetail video last night (it's pledge week), and he used the tail vice to hold the pieces on an angle for cutting the dovetails and pins. This is something neat the tail vise can do that no face or leg vise can not.

Pam

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#11

Re: Bench Screw ??

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>I have seen the Nicholson benches at Williamsburg but I just didn't have the guts to ask if I could crawl underneath and study the underside. :-)

John, could you send me your email address?

Jeff

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#12

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

Alan Bierbaum

>"I've gradually weaned myself from using my end vise for face jointing or smoothing over the years - it's just as easy to use a stop of one kind or another for this. (I haven't done this for philosophical reasons, it's just that I went with a cheap quick-release vise for the end vise, and it sags when it's open wide - so sometimes it's just too much trouble to find the right thickness shim for the top of the vise face). And there are times that I've wished I had that end of the bench free. So I had more or less settled on this design until one activity that has really been facillitated by the end vise occurred to me: Thicknessing. "

I am no maven (or even an expert); however, I went the reverse direction. I used stops and L-brackets for years because I did not have a tail vise. A well built tail vise, of any type, will securely hold many things (irregular objects, chair parts, wood for planning, and wood for profiling with moulding planes). It really depends on the way that you work as to whether or not you "need" a tail vise. I am glad that I put one in my "new" bench.

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#13

Re: Bench Screw ??

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>Hey John- Send me your email address at home and I'll email you a scanned copy of the plans for the Nicholson Bench. I got these a few years ago when I was at williamsburg for one of the 18th century conferences. I thought you were there that year and would have gotten a copy.

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#14

Steve Kubien

That's what I've got

Steve Kubien

>I went fairly simple on my bench and incorporated that style of 'tail-vise'. It works as well as a tail vise as anything else and is dead-on simple to make.

Despite this fact, my next bench will not have a tail vise. It will basically be a flat table with a wide front skirt (for dogs and holdfasts), crochet (sp) and maybe a removeable, wide front vise.

Cheers,

Steve Kubien

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#15

Re: Or....Norm's Endvise?!?!

Dennis McDonaugh

>I was thinking of that type of vice myself. It seems pretty easy to add to an existing vice and seems like it would be durable too.

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#16

Great!

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>We may have something of a movement on our hands! :-)

I am always amazed at how much Roy can do on that little bench I have seen him use on his show. It doesn't even have a front vise. Le Hook and holdfasts are very versatile.

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#17

Re: Great!

Dean J in MN

>

Le Hook and holdfasts are very versatile.


Sure are!

-Dean

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#18

Steve Kubien

Say what?

Steve Kubien

>Pam,

I haven't seen the video you speak of (although many people say it's wonderful) and I'm having a tough time envisioning this. If I was dovetailing a drawer side (let's say 1x4 material) in my shoulder vise, I can see angling the piece, so the cuts are straight up and down (4" wide face facing me as I cut). How can you do this in a tail vise?

Curious and looking for new angles (I couldn't resist),

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ontario

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#19

But Lap Dovetails...

David Wheeler

>Pam,

I was just about to post the Kingshott thing for sawing the pins on lap dovetails. I'm not completely happy (comfortable) with my bench, but since cutting half-lap dt's the Kingshott way, I'm not sure what would replace my tail vise. However, I'm not happy at all with the Vertis Twin that I put on the face... my bench is 4" thick maple and I had to "attach" a piece on the underside of my bench to run the vise through. I have it working, but I'm not happy with it. I'm thinking about going back to the vises from the first bench I made 25 years ago from FWW #24 with the leg vises article.

-David

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#20

Re: Or....Norm's Endvise?!?! *LINK*

Dean in Burlington

>The Woodsmith Euro bench also uses this type of tail vise. I thought of doing this on mine but didn't and now I regret it seeing I haven't even installed my tail vise on my bench after a year.

You will loose a little room with this set up though because a traditional tail vise will open 12 or so inches beyond your bench.


Woodsmith Bench

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#21

Re: But Lap Dovetails...

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>I think I remember that one. It had 3 leg vises. Two on the end which lined up with dog holes along the length of the bench and one on the front.

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#22

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

Paul M. in San Diego

>Hi Adam and Mike,

I have a bench with a standard metal-slide mechanism tail vise. I rarely use the tail vise as I usually plane up against a stop. I've almost forgotten I have a tail vise as I'm used to not using it.

This weekend however I was trying to taper some table legs from 2.5" at the top down to 1" at the bottom. I wanted a gradual curved taper to these legs so they don't look like they were chopped off at an angle by a normite.

I nicely tapered 2 sides, and started on the 3rd side. As much as I tried to plane against a stop, it wouldn't work because the bottom surface was now a curved surface, and the piece rocked on the bench.

I put this in the tail vise and placed a shim under the tapered lower edge and was able to continue on the other 2 sides of the leg. I'm glad I had the tail vise for this operation, as I couldn't figure out how to plane this curved surface without it.

-- Paul M.

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#23

Re: Say what?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Sure, as you face the bench insert the 4" face parallel with your bench, then tilt.

I think this might work with a shoulder vise, too, clamp edge to edge and cut parallel to the bench.

Pam

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#24

OK - Now I'm Officially Confused

Todd Stock

>I guess I'll get the tape...

Re: Question for Adam and other workbench mavens

#25

Re: Bench Screw ??

john jesseph

>Hi Dave;

I looked all over the house for those plans about a month ago, and couldn't find them. I found another set of a similar bench. My sister in law reformatted our old computer, and I thought all the photos you sent me a few years ago were gone. Last week she did the same for this computer, and she showed me where she had saved all my old photos from the other computer and loaded them on this one. So I was just looking at some of those pics, thanks again! One of them seems to have some clues to my question...

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