New backsaw at the Woodworking Show

Re: New backsaw at the Woodworking Show

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Michael, I wasn't questioning your knowledge of the furniture industry; but did want to point out discrepencies with LN and LV, who are not only designing and doing R&D, but they are also selling to end users. Therefore, the cost structure envelopes both wholesale and retail, not just wholesale.

Pam

LN and 1776 Dovetail Saw Pix

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>Here is a photo of the Thomas Flynn Pax 1776:



(courtesy of The Best Things)

Here is a picture of the Lie-Nielsen:



(courtesy of Lie-Nielsen)

The Flynn has 20 PPI, vs. 15 PPI for the LN. Quite a substantial difference. The LN handle seems a bit better relieved, and has a more pronounced index finger cutout. the back seems a bit crude, but perhaps that is due to the fact that, as the ad copy reads, "the back is tensioned in the traditional manner."

Re: Economics and Ideology

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I'll argue that point, too. I think my ideologies, and the various Todds' , and Pam's and Lyn's and Wiley's and especially Chris's (especially since he is so much more widely read) a few others' make a significant difference in the marketing and sales of modern handsaws for joinery. If I didn't think so, I wouldn't bother to be here to help people make informed decisions.

Re: LN and 1776 Dovetail Saw Pix

Todd Stock

>Thanks, Don - looks like a credible effort. Choice is good...

Did you get a chance to try it out?

You're making my point again,

Michael R

>thank you. When these companies sell retail, they get the retailer's margin as well as the wholesale margin, making it even more profitable. The cost of selling direct is a lot less than that of maintaining retail locations nationwide.

As far as R&D and such goes, in the Furniture biz, that all comes out of the 30% GM. Do you have any idea how much it costs to design, prototype, and tool up for an entire line of furniture, not to mention marketing materials?

I don't know where you are going with this. It's a long way from the question of whether their pricing is market based or cost based.

Re: LN and 1776 Dovetail Saw Pix

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>It's hard to be sure from a photograph, but here are my observations.

You will notice that, unlike the Adria and the Lie-Nielsen, the back of the Flynn has been made by bending brass flat stock. The others' backs are machined from solid blocks of brass. I think a machined back is stronger and more stalbe and will exhibit less distortion of the blade due to warpage or inconsistent grip on the blade over time. Therefore, the the LN and Adrias should be lighter and stay straighter. Individual samples of the PAX should also show more variation in these parameters.

The photo shows a distinct shadow around the perimeter of the nuts. This indicates less quality of manufacturing. Either the nuts are set too deep or the holes are too big. I think the nuts are too close to the front edge of the handle for maximum strength.

The blade appears to have a brushed surface. The blades of the L-N and Adria are polished, so that you can see a reflection of the wood in the blade. That is a distinct advantage in assuring the blade is perpendicular to the wood at both the start of the cut and as the cut progresses.

IIRC, Joel had one of these Flynn saws at the 2003 Ft. Washington show that I got a chance to handle, but not cut with. Correct me if I'm wrong, Joel. My initial impression was that the handle was not as comfortable

as the Lie-Nielsen's because the arises were sharper, and the saw was heavy and not as well balanced.

There are some other, important characteristics about which I CANNOT offer any opinions. First is the hardness of the steel, which affects how often the saw will need to be resharpened. Second is the smoothness of cut, which of course you would fix the first time you resharpened it. Third is the set of the teeth, which if not too narrow for your wood and work, can also be quickly remedied. Fourth is the TPI. What is optimum for you depends on how thick your typical boards are.

Still, it should be a fine saw, but before someone decides to go out and buy one, I would suggest they should do some side-by-side comparisons.

Re: LN and 1776 Dovetail Saw Pix

Joel

>We stock a lot of Pax saws - not this one - simply because we stock the Adria saw which is only 4 bucks more and has a more tradtionaly sized handle.

Re: Economics and Ideology

Michael R

>So let me get this right: You are saying that the marketing of woodworking hand tools is primarily driven by political and economical ideology? What a novel theory. One of my marketing mentors told me 30 years that the reasons people buy things break down to just three things: Need, Greed, an Fantasy. I haven't seen anything that proves him wrong yet. He never mentioned political ideology as a major factor, nor has it come up in any of my studies on the subject.

Tell me, do you have any practical, real world experience on which to base your opinions? Have you ever successfully brought a product from design to market? Have you ever had to meet a payroll or deal with the counltess little crises that plague every business? Have you ever signed a million-dollar note?

I've tried throughout this discussion to give reasons for my opinions, which people can take or leave as they wish. I've given a very short recap on the experiential base from which I derive my opinions. Tell us, please, the experiences and data that lead you to your opinions.

MR

Re: $109 for a back saw?

Todd Hughes

>I to would tell most people to get an old Disston or other vintage saw on the cheap I live in old tool hell and they are still common and inexpensive.Bought a very nice Disston back saw other week for $2 at the flea market. BUT I do think there is a large market for expensive quality saws , even new ones out there. My friend Joe and me were just talking about this the other day and he is actually thinking about starting to make some saws to sell. Wanted me to get into it with him but I am way to lazy for that but I think if you made a VERY well made and kind of fancy saw and hyp...opps I mean promoted it very well you could get $200 easly for a nice basicaly hand made back saw. I can hardly spell economics....but I do sort of know how to sell stuff and I think there is a large base of people with money that want to spend it on such things.......Oh my $2 disston is up to $117 on ebay and still has a day to go...Climb Baby Climb! ....Todd

Re: Economics and Ideology

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>No, that is not what I am saying. Are you suggesting that only owners of small businesses have any understanding of and the right to voice any opinion on economics?

Re: Economics and Ideology

Michael R

>Nope. Just asking for a reasoned, experiential basis for those opinions. Opinions with no basis aren't very edifying, and since you presume to be arbiter of information for the readers of this forum, it would be interesting to know where those opinions come from so folks can weigh them more objectively. That's what most of us try to do.

You're not one of those bookish academician types who "know" how to do everything but don't actually do anything, are you? Wouldn't be very Zen, if you were. How about it?

MR

Re: $109 for a back saw?

Michael R

>Sincere congratulations. I think that's really great, honestly. Did you happen to notice all the similar saws in useable condition that have already sold for under $30 in the last week or so? You certainly made a special find. Your presentation is excellent, too.

MR

Re: Economics and Ideology

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Micheal, you may be new here, but William is not. His opinion is highly valued because he has wide experience and an ability to reason. Many of us have been hanging aroud for years.

That said, his statement about economics being about politics, ideology, etc. brings up an interesting question (I was an econ major): What is economics? There's the economics that business yells about, in which they pretend to like free markets, and tends to be all about supply, demand, prices, market creation and destruction, and the like.

Then there's the economics of the real world in which business does everything possible to avoid free markets by gaining political advantage, having laws made to advantage such a business, denying such advantage to other businesses, etc. This real world economics appears to be as much political as anything else.

I'm not sure this latter economics is part of the official definition of economics, but it sure is effective these days, and seems germane.

Now I'm sure you'll convince yourself that this was your point all along, so have at it.

Pam

Well, apparently somebody has to.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: Economics and Ideology

Michael R

>Pam, FWIW,I've been hanging around here for years, off and on, and I have noticed your contributions. I haven't participated much for the last three years because I was busy running my business and trying to take care of my wife while she died, among other things. I have some time on my hands right now, but that won't last too much longer.

I wont argue about your comments on economics in general; I agree in principle, but, as with everything, there's more to it.

But longevity doesn't equate to authority. Is there something wrong with asking someone to back up his or her opinions? At least, I feel like you have a reason for your opinions; we just have some different viewpoints and derive some different conclusions from our training and experience. That makes for a useful and sometimes interesting exchange.

What William has said in his posts seems pretty wide of the mark and off point to me, so naturally I wonder where his opinions come from. I'll happily back up anything I write with facts, experience, or practical demonsration. If I can't I'll either not write it or will phrase it with disclaimers. Is that too much to expect in return from someone who poses as a figure of authority?

MR

Re: Economics and Ideology

Greg Sloop, Portland OR

>I should probably keep my mouth shut, but I often have difficulty doing so.

I'm having a hard time deciding who to "side" with here.

Michael R has probably been the only one in this thread who has used real figures and guess-work to reach some conclusion, and it seems that the result is a lot of opinion taking issue with his conclusions.

While I think he's missing some of those points, and I think his delivery may be a bit more pointed than needed, I think in general he's right.

If one is to argue with the basis of his argument, I think one needs to start with the "basis" rather than arguing some opinions.

The result, IMHO, is that his basis stands largely intact. We may find his characterization less than appealing and want to couch that in terms that are more appealing and show a more acceptable stand, but the basics are unchanged.

I think what many have said, as I understood it is this...

LN and LV may be able to charge more because that is what the market will bear. However, it appears as though LV and LN are both taking those "profits" and distributing them back to the employees as wages etc.

Thus, in a way all are right. They are charging what the market will bear, but rather than "pocketing" it, they are paying it back out in good jobs and wages, health care, caring for the environment etc. Still however, it's based on what the market will bear, rather than "required" production costs. (And I'm as guilty as others, as I have no real basis for making these assumptions, other than I see the proof in the pudding as I know about the companies themselves.)

The conclusion is that my political belief that workers ought to be able to work at a living wage can impact the economics of the situation.

I (when accompanied by others) can choose to buy items that are more costly than they must be, simply because I'm getting more "percieved" value by buying from a vendor who does care about emoployees, the environment etc.

Cheers,

Greg

Re: Economics and Ideology

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Before wc, many of us hung around Badger Pond, posted lots of photos and the like of our work, including William. Personally, I seldom if ever bother anymore. The way BP was demised [sic] convinced me of the limited life of that effort, and quite an effort it was.

William makes no great claims to authority. We have granted it to him.

Pam

Re: $109 for a back saw?

paul womack

>...common and inexpensive.

Oh my $2 disston is up to $117 on ebay and still has a day to go...

I guess old saws aren't cheap on Ebay, eh Todd?

We're into that time vs cash thing again.

BugBear

Re: LN and 1776 Dovetail Saw Pix

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>Hi Todd,

I have not used the 1776. I just posted the pair of pix to further the discussion, for those without either the time or inclination to search for the relevant web sites.

It would be fun to have the Adria, LN, Flynn, STW etc, newly sharpened, to compare.

Who`s in charge here

Bob Hackett

>Leaders usually become leaders(and remain leaders)because they have the appropriate skill set for the job at hand.

The other people involved follow the leader because they have faith in that person`s skills and trust thier judgement.

I`d say that was the case here.

If you`ve ever been in the service and worked with an SF unit you`d find it`s not the man with the most rank leading every mission,it`s the most qualified man on the team.

Mainely,Bob

Wouldn't want anyone...

Ted Owen, Moderator

>to be misled here. The primary difference between BP--where I, too, spent a lot of enjoyable time--and WC is not the power to Moderate the messageboards but rather the degree to which such Moderation is deemed necessary. We're all guests of Ellis, the host. It is his site to the same extent as Wayne's was his, and Ellis holds the same level of authority.

The rules are described to a degree in the FAQ's. Where additional interpretation is required, the final rules are as Ellis and his Moderators determine.

Best, Ted

(No responses to this post are necessary.)

Re: LN and 1776 Dovetail Saw Pix

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Agree. Possibly an idea for a tool review by a progressive woodworking magazine. Any takers? I know David Charlesworth reviewed and compared some saws in his book. Perhaps an updated comparison would be worth the effort.JR

Re: LN and 1776 Dovetail Saw Pix

Tom Price

>The web site says the saw has 20 tpi. I don't have one of these saws but I have a similar 1970's era model made by Sanderson-Kayser. The etch also says Pax (whats up with that?). The folded brass back is not a problem - it grips the blade well and is quite straight. The biggest problem was the 20 tpi blade. 20 tpi is too many teeth for practical use. The saw cut slowly and was essentially unsharpenable (by hand) with such fine teeth.

After I reshaped the handle and had Tom Law recut the teeth to 16 tpi, it turned out to be acceptable.

Add in the cost of retoothing the Flynn saw and you're getting in the same range as Adria and LN.

Hadn't considered that...

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>That is an interesting fact. I know that I haven't had any luck sharpening teeth that fine. The eyes go first huh?

See you at PATINA?JR

Re: LN and 1776 Dovetail Saw Pix

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I'm very glad to get a second opinion from someone with a lot more saws than I have, and lots more experience with them as well. My backsaws with folded over steel or brass backs all cut nice and straight, but some of them look crooked. Maybe it's an optical illusion, but my personal preference is for one made like an L-N or Adria.

The only uses I see where 20 TPI would make sense would be for cutting drawer DTs in stock of 1/4" or less.