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Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

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Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#1

Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

ken c

>I've enjoyed the thread so much I just couldn't let it die!

I guess in my minds eye I see a lot of hobbiests sitting there staring at their new Lie Nielsen smoother which they've lapped flat to a tenth of a thou and which they've squared the blade (or iron if you're fussy) to a tenth (which must also be essential to take full width 25 micron shavings) right?). They do their planing in a precisely temperature and humidity controlled environment - maybe to better than 1 degree variance - so that the wood *and* the steel of the plane doesn't move. They wear a pair of insulated gloves so that body heat isn't transferred to the plane thus spoiling it's accuracy, also a supplied air breathing system so that moisture and heat from their breath doesn't modulate the wood or the plane and......well you get the picture.

It just seems kind of daft when you look at what our forebearers used to build the stuff they built.

Ken

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#2

So Ken...

Bob Hackett

>What color horse do you ride to work?

MB

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#3

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

Ernie Miller Topeka

>So I just clean andf sharpen and use. once I get to working I have to worry about the sweat that is dripping off my forehead. and possably even knocking a budwiser over on the bench creating a floud. We be living in differant wolds on the same planet.

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#4

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

Sam Simpson

>Hi Y'all,

Ken, I'll play devils advocate with you.

First, I think you dismiss the efforts of our forbears rather glibly. Having descended from a long line of craftsmen, I can attest to their anal attitude in the preparation of their tools and work.

Pattern-making was once a trade of woodworkers who applied extreme accuracy into their work. All of the things you mentioned, as being totally unnecessary where considered part of the necessary regimen. It took the finest team of cabinet makers in France nine years to make a desk for King Louis the fourteenth. And the drawers still run silky smooth to this day. Not so long ago all planes boats trains and autos where made of wood. And accuracy was paramount in much of the construction. And the parts that where cast in metal where first made as patterns in wood.

I think you are overlooking something.

Regards Sam Simpson.

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#5

Might as well spend two cents here...

Thomas Skaggs, Foothills of Mount Level

>Ken,

Me thinks your example is designed to incite conversation. I don't know anyone who works wood like that. Lord knows I don't!

Setting up our tools accurately helps assure a better product. Rocket science tolerances are overkill. Wood is alive at all times. Last night I looked at the exposed tenons on the breadboard ends of a table I made and they are proud. In a few weeks they will be flush. The accuracy of my tools would not have changed that phenomenon.

I suppose no matter how much we tune, sharpen and align our tools we are still prone to the life of wood and our own built-in inaccuracies (bad lighting, too much pressure applied, poor execution etc.). None the less, given those inevitable events, we should not neglect the one thing we can control...good tool preparation. At least by preparing our tools well we can reduce one factor in the whole process.

As far as your example is concerned if I worried about accurracy to that degree I would never sleep. So I rest easy knowing I have wood putty, CA glue, touch up sticks and strong clamps on hand at all times! ;-)

Thanks for stirring the pot.

Tommy

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#6

Re: plane temperature

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>A plane heats up considerable while using it, from the resistance of the wood going through the mouth. So keeping the room at a certain temperature and wearing gloves does not prevent the plane from changing temperatures. What you have to do is take a few swipes (3 in oak, but only 1 in maple) and then let the plane cool back down.

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#7

Re: Might as well spend two cents here...

ken c

>Tom,

You're right, my post was not meant to annoy or insult anyone. Just wanted to stimulate some fun conversation.

I'll let it go after this thread I promise!

Ken

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#8

Re: plane temperature

ken c

>Moses,

You've hit the nail on the head! Hopefully with a fully spheroided, titanium shafted hammer of course.

I was actually toying with the idea of running refrigerant through ducts on the side of the plane, but I'm still worried about the center of the sole, I fear it may be insufficiently cooled for true full width 25,000 nano-meter shavings.

;-)

Ken

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#9

Re: plane temperature

Alan Hamilton

>ken,

Don't let it die! The subject is far from being completely exhausted; and your two threads are still fun.

Alan

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#10

I agree

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Instead of asking why the old masters did what they did, we seem to be ridiculing them for even trying. Very superior, closed off attitude, which I think is unjustified.

Pam, who's spent way too many years listening to software developers pointing out stupidities in code that weren't stupid at all

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#11

1�cent (approx. 2 UScents).

CONGER - the Irish diaspora in Munich

>Ken... after a fun 2 threads, I conclude you are a plane in the ash.

-g-

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#12

Memory lane *long*

cooper suter

>This thread reminds me of a very short lived submission I once made to The Badger Pond.

I doubt any regulars there got to read it, cause it got bounced pronto quick.

I think the thread that triggered my tirade was regarding the "ART" of the timberframer. Someone was awestruck, and gushingly quoting Ted Benson on how a timberframer had to work in 32nds of an inch.

I'm not vain enough usually, to save my web postings, but I'd composed the rant in simple text, and never deleted the folder. Coincidentally, I recently ran across it when cleaning up the desktop. Must have been meant to be, cause now I can regurgitate it again for your enjoyment ;).

.........."Come on, any one fussing and bragging over 1/32" on a joint or length measurement in a 24' long 8"x8" airdried piece of hardwood, or comparing a timberframe to a piece of fine furniture, is either full o' sh*t or hopelessly anal. I don't know Ted Benson, and he is maybe a fine individual, but he has put himself in the limelight so I think his pronouncements are fair game for criticism. I have heard this sort of crap firsthand out of timberframers in the past (except that person was talking 64ths).

To fit together well and be structurally sound should be the end goal, all this talk of what infintessimal fraction they work to has no function in the real world, it's only ego and marketing. It doesn't take more than a sneezes change in humidity or a small swing in temperature to make that 32nd mean absolutely squat in that size of a piece of wood.

Timberframing itself is fine, but it is not the end-all, it is just one facett of the whole range of constuction and carpentry technics. People whom market themselves as saviors and keepers of any one "true sacred ancient" craft are obnoxious and do a diservice to all the rest of the quality minded tradesmen, craftsmen, and pros who just go about their work with conscience and skill. Look at the breadth of skills that Steve Thomas has shown in his postings. Or Todd's ability to take a hammer, a fire, and an idea and produce something, but w/out claiming he is THE high practicioner of THE most important craft. In my experience, timberframers (or at least the owners of the companies) are frustrated college educated professionals living out overly romantic midlife crisis's. They are savy in the marketing department, but their BS doesn't hold water in reallity. Many have next to no foundation in the trades and are very limited in their scope of general carpentry knowledge.

Why do some timberframers sell themselves as a professional "artisans" (they feel elevated above the term tradesman) when procurring work, but then put on a "seminar" to perform the actual construction w/ rank amatuers ( that's getting payed twice for one job, once by the homeowner and once by the people that you Huck Finn into paying you to do your work) . A lot of craftsman would have to much pride, and intolerance for working day in and day out w/ amatuers to do this. Mr. Benson appeared on This Old House I think 10 years or so ago. He was building a house/holding a seminar.His work force appeared to consist of old ladies in tennis shoes, and he came across as self righteous and arrogant. He pontificated about the "dance of the timberframer", and how the house deck was "his dance floor". His "dance" partners were a bunch of grandmothers and narrow shouldered wide waisted middle aged Walter Mitty's. A dance? Save it for your creative writing exam, it's a job, a trade to be proud of, work to be done well. It's not some romantic/fantasy dream world.

I have been in three different self proclaimed "professional" timberframers houses (one had a masters in library science, one had been a mid-level sales exec., and one had an english lit. degree). None of them cut the stairs properly, they were off by a full tread thickness at the top and bottoms. A complete rookies mistake, and one that is very dangerous, but one they didn't/couldn't fix. They all had roof leaks and rotting/waterlogged siding due to poor detailing. It took me only a couple of years to learn how to frame a house, after 21 yrs. professionally I'm still learning better flashing details. Putting it up is easy, taking the time and knowing the many technics to make it last is the hard part that only experience can give. But the initial sale and erection is what results in the pay check so that is where novices and BSers spend their time.

I had one framer belittle me, because at the time I had no idea how to convert rise/run roof ratios into degrees. That's not how many carpenters view and manipulate roof framing math. His buildings were planned on a cad programm and cut in the shop to the 64th. His set of skills would have been useless out in the mud where everything isn't perfectly square, plumb, and level, but things still need to fit well and be straight and fair to the eye.

Timberframers are not unique in having a Balkanized veiw of the carpentry trade. I work w/ carpenters all the time who consider themselves only board hangers, only ceiling guys, only form jockeys, only scaffold rats, only framers, only fixture setters, only metal stud guys, only welders, only millwork builders, etc., etc., etc. The true carpenter is reasonably proficient at all facets of the trade. Give him the proper tools, plans, labor, and materials and he will produce quality work in a productive manner. I enjoy and seek-out variety in my work. Having to learn new skills, even under sometimes harsh jobsite conditions, is what keeps me fresh and involved. Specialization is fine, and can lead to good productivety and profit. But the specialist is not better than the generalist and many times is limited by his narrow scope of skills. Obviously a nerve was hit, and there's more, but I'll save it. Coop".........

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#13

Reductio ad absurdum

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>I know you're teasing, but...

Wood moves constantly, and tools, whether power or hand, are never going to accomplish in wood the precision possible in metal. Still, starting from a certain level of precision assists in arriving at an acceptable level of precision at the end. If this was not true, we would have no reason for layout tools, we could just randomly mark and cut. Some of my carpentry would give the impression that this is how I work.

I've never spent time flattening the soles of my planes, but I did get rid of one that was so far out of flat it wasn't cutting well. I have spent time getting the edges on the irons square to the iron. I've also spent time and money (well, maybe $15) getting to a high-quality combination square so that my marking out would be as square as possible, and own winding sticks and adjustable bevels.

I've lost track of the first place I heard or read, "The carpenter works to the nearest 1/16", the cabinetmaker to the nearest 1/64", the boatbuilder to the nearest boat." Different work calls for different precision.

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#14

Re: Might as well spend two cents here...

Mike L in Trabuco Canyon, CA

>FWIW, I think it's hard for most people to take words like "daft" and "silly" as not being insulting when the words are applied to them or their viewpoints. Just m.o.

Cheers,

Mike

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#15

Re: Memory lane *long*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>So, why did Atla the Hun kill that message?

Pam

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#16

Re: Reductio ad absurdum

Mike G.

>Bill said;

"I've lost track of the first place I heard or read, "The carpenter works to the nearest 1/16", the cabinetmaker to the nearest 1/64", the boatbuilder to the nearest boat." Different work calls for different precision."

How 'bout..." Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk and cut with a chainsaw. 8^)

I've been a carpenter for over 25 years and I still don't and won't know everything there is to know...because it changes all the time. New materials and techniques...different job than the last one, ect. I can't tell you how many "carpenters" I've worked with who couldn't lay out a wall properly, or a set of stairs. I've been in countless houses after the "carpenters" were through trimming out and still can't believe they don't know how to cope inside corners of profiled moldings.

I do the entire house from dirt to punch list so I'm kind of familiar with most of the facets of building a house. That joint you meticulously cut yesterday that was "tighter than Dick's hatband" isn't so tight today. I know a few "timberframers, too and they all think they're just a cut above the rest of us lowly carpenters. But who do you think they call when something needs to be fixed?

Mike G.

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#17

Re: Memory lane *long*

Bob Hutchins in Central Texas

>Howdy Coop!

I recollect that barn raising series on TOH and have to agree with your sentiments about TB's performance -- for performance before the camera it truly was. That series actually soured me on TOH. The director and film editors lost their audience there, IMO.

TOH has "jumped the shark" many times but manages to retain its PBS franchise because it has been a very successful fund-raiser program. For example, building multi-million dollar rehabs and selling them to finance production can't be reasonably expected to appeal to the mass audience (again, IMO). How many of us have the means -- or aspire to -- live in such environs.

Methinks Morash has made too much moola. The FNG host is just too cute . . . even for my 21 yo daughter. And the cast, with the possible exception of Nahm, became way too condescending to be watched a long time ago. They may be very accomplished in their respective fields, but their trade show appearances have done much to inflate their egos.

Give my Roy Underhill any time! He's too 'cute' much of the time but he sure doesn't take himself too seriously.

BobH

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#18

Re: Appropriate Conduct

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Why was Cooper's post deleted?

Because it was posted on Wayne's website, and it broke Wayne's published rules. In particular, it used vulgarities that Wayne specified could not be used on Badger Pond, it was insulting (never an effective method of combatting arrogance), it personally attacked an individual and made blanket derogatory statements about several groups of people, and it even delved into discussions of religion (timberframing as a belief system).

Unlike Atilla, the Head Badger stayed home, on his own Pond, that he created. He did not murder, rape, burn, pillage, plunder, etc., on someone else's land or property or family or friends.

The timberframing being discussed was not specific to bathrooms, latrines or outhouses, so the repeated use of potty words was inappropriate. Use of profanity and vulgarity, which are not necessary to convey the gist of the discussion, are intended only to offend and shock and stifle objective discussion of the facts. This tends to drive away many people, who might otherwise have reasoned opinions and views to offer on the subject of discussion, or who might otherwise learn from the forum, and thereby severely limits its value to the community.

Remember that WoodCentral is Ellis's island, and he and the others, who work diligently to make it work and to provide value to the community, also have standards of behavior that those who would use this forum are expected to follow.

Hopefully, all of us have learned some of these valuable lessons from our participation on Badger Pond. I also have kept a few things I wrote, but then thought better of posting there. I won't share them. They are just to remind me that, like anyone else, I can all too easily lose my temper and make statements that I would later regret, because they added nothing substansive to the discussion.

Should I delete the copy that Cooper posted here, or should I assume it was posted only for historical perspective, to demonstrate how much we have matured in the interim? Did anyone enjoy it? Would we have enjoyed it more if Cooper had edited it to retain the pertinent thoughts but remove the offensive language?

Should I delete Pam's post, because it slanders Wayne Miller, and also insults the Barbarian by misspelling his name?

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#19

Re: Might as well spend two cents here...

kenc

>Mike,

You must be pretty thin skinned then.

Sorry,

Ken

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#20

Re: Appropriate Conduct

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Well, there's not all that much foul language, but some. So I'd say correct and repost.

As to my post, I couldn't think of exactly the correct slander, so feel free to delete it for that. As to the spelling of Atla, I think you want to check this. I know that we barbarians often refer to him as Atilla, but that's incorrect so far as I know.

Pam

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#21

Re: Appropriate Conduct

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I have often wondered who determined what was foul language and what wasn't. For instance, why is the word "s**t" considered bad, but "manure" is not?

I can see why Coop's post was deleted from the forum; there are many people in the world who would get really irate over it and post things that have much worse language in response to it. Wayne's goal was to keep a site that people would be comfortable in, and he had rules set up to aim for that goal.

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#22

David Barnett

"Atla-Mal" is correct in HUNgarian

David Barnett

>

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#23

Silly, No Sense, and Daft.

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>What's next?

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#24

Re: Appropriate Conduct

kenc

>Bill,

I share Pam's ire with Wayne Miller I must admit. I enjoyed BP for the most part but felt like his moderation was heavy handed and autocratic.

As you say, that was his right, but the way in which he refused to "let anyone else play with his ball" by closing BP rather than allowing someone else to take it over potentially left us all stranded.

I've been away from WW for a couple of years but Woodcentral seems to be as good now as it was when we all transferred over from BP.

Luckily for us Ellis seems to be the perfect host.

Ken

Re: Recollecting my thoughts on "accuracy"

#25

Neandering tendencies *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Ken, dunno if you know it or not, but there's a group of neander's in your neck of the woods (Bay area?)


BAG's

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