terminology? What plane am I looking for?

Re:

glh

>Usually, a shoulder plane is used for fitting tenons, although some use block rabbet planes. The latter is just like a block plane but the mouth runs the full width of the sole.

chisel

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Shoulder planes are for tenon shoulders, not tenon cheeks. Some guys use block planes for this, some prefer skewed block planes or block/rabbet planes, but I prefer a wide chisel.

Adam

Re: shoulder plane *LINK*

Glenn Madsen

>Depends on the size of the tenons and the overall work that you do. I find that the Veritas Medium Shoulder plane, at 3/4" or so wide, is a joy to use for furniture and cabinet work.

I have 'test driven' the large one, but have so far not gotten out the crowbar, other needs having been more pressing.

Massive numbers of pixels, all recycled of course, have been applied to discussion of this topic in the recent months. Much more esteemed Galoots than I have their wisdom archived, I'm certain. But for a starter shoulder plane, it's hard to imagine anything more useful than the LV Medium.


Veritas shoulder planes

Re: tenon fitting

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Both shoulder trimming and cheek trimming are involved in fitting tenons. As it happens, the large shoulder trimmers are wide enough to be effective cheek trimmers as well, don't be fooled by perspective. For example, the LN 073 and LV are 1.25" wide, So if you're looking for an all-in-one solution, one of those is probably your best bet.

For trimming cheeks, though, especially if you make bigger pieces that have large tenons, you may want a rebate/rabbet plane like the LN rabbet block or LN skew block or even a LN 10-1/4 bench rabbet.

So, both types are at heart rebate planes and can function interchangeably. BTW, we don't consider this the dark side.

Pam

Re: terminology? What plane am I looking for?

Tony - Memphis

>Hello Henry. I posted this recently. I make my tenons using a jig on the ts. I leave the line and then finish them with an LN rabbet block plane set for a very light cut. Oh, I'm talking cheeks here, btw. I cut the shoulder cuts on the ts and normally don't mess with them. I have done the shoulders with a shoulder plane when I had a fit issue (can't remember details) and it was a bit difficult. You have to be careful and not go all the way across, or clamp a waste piece on the exit side so you down knock off a piece. I like fitting the cheeks by hand. I feel like I can get a better fit and its much less dangerous than doing it on the ts (the danger being cutting off too much). Anyway, good luck with it. I took a chair class last fall and we did tenons by hand. Used the shoulder plane a lot there to bring them to the marked line.

Tony

Re: terminology? What plane am I looking for?

Wendell @ Murphy, TX

>I started with a LN 60-1/2R rabbet block plane for trimming cheeks and shoulder to some extent. I think it is a good choice to start with because it can pull double duty as a low angle block plane. Now I have the LV medium shoulder plane which is much better for tenon shoulders. I would like to try the left-hand LN 140 skewed block plane for tenon cheek trimming, but it is not in the budget right now. Adam has a good point about chisels though. I used chisels before I got the 60-1/2R. It worked but took more skill which probably means I should have practiced chiseling rather than buying the plane :)

Wendell

Re: terminology? What plane am I looking for?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I, too, had a couple of problems with chiselling, not sure what practice could have done about them though. For one, I'd get massive tear out. Granted, using the chisels bevel down helped a lot. And second, it would take a long time to chisel the whole tenon all the way around. The bevel down approach took longer than bevel up.

Pam

Re: terminology? What plane am I looking for?

Alan Bierbaum

>If you are talking furniture sized tenons: I use either , in order of handiness 1) chisel, 2) shoulder plane, 3) block plane, or 4) smooth plane.

There are many different ways of doing this and the choice will vary with the individual. Depending on the tenon size I would use one of the following Veritas planes: medium shoulder, large shoulder, low angle block (or apron block), or LA smoother. YMMV

Alan

Re: terminology? What plane am I looking for?

Justin W.

>For tenon shoulders I use a shoulder plane. For tenon cheeks I use a router plane. That guarantees the cheeks will be parallel to the face of the board and the shoulders will be exactly the same depth (assuming that's what you're after).

Re: terminology? What plane am I looking for?

Wendell @ Murphy, TX

>My problem wasn't tear out. I just couldn't shave the tenon to a consistant thickness. I kept ending up with tapered (in multiple axis) tenons, not pretty.

Wendell

Re: chisel

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I would agree that the chisel is probably the true galoot way to trim tenons. Perhaps the only thing that would be better is to trim them with a spoon. really.

I want to enjoy working with wood in my shop at home. So for me personally, I doubt I will ever try trimming a tenon with a chisel. It seems to me that you would want a consistent thickness for a tenon to glue to the mortice very securely, and in my opinion this would be much easier to do with a plane that a chisel, simply because the sole of the plane controls the cut.

Re: chisel

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>At the time I wasn't worried about doing things the neanderthal way, never have been when it comes down to it. But I had this tenon that needed trimming and no rebate planes, didn't think it wise to wait until I found one.

Pam

Re: chisel

Jack Guzman from Maine

>Sometimes I find it easier to trim consistently with a chisel than a plane.I have more control over it and it's easer to tell when the chisel is level to the bench.With a plane I can't see what I'm removing til it's gone.The plane covers the piece.---Jack

Why not a router plane?

Ian in Sydney

>Pam

shoulder planes are OK for tennon cheeks, but there's a risk of not staying square.

a router (suported on a scrap of the same thickness) will ensure that your tennon stays parallel with the stock.

Router plane is easiest of all

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>Use a router plane the way Ian suggests.

Using a router plane and offcut results in far fewer of those cumulative little errors that conspire over a whole project to make carcasses, frames and whole assemblies out of square.

Router planes don't have the same "coolness" quota as a shoulder plane, but they are cheaper and do a better job.

regards

Angus Barclay

Another vote for the router plane.

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>

Re: Why not a router plane?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>And if you have a tenon that's 2" long?

Pam

Re: Why not a router plane?

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>You must be one of those engineer fellers :^) The problem is that you have to get the piece of scrap the same thickness as the rail you're putting the tenon on. Otherwise, the tenon ends up tapered anyhow. And, you're only removing about 1/4" wide swath at a time.

Even if I cut the cheeks with a table saw, I index both cuts off the face of the rail, the same way the mortise gauge works when cutting them by hand sawing. That way, any differences in thickness of the frame parts is immaterial.

What do you do if you have to cut a tenon that is not supposed to be parallel with the face of the board, for example, for the joint between the side seat rail and the back leg of a chair? In this case, the face of the board is actually twisted, so you don't even have a flat face to ride the router base plate on.

I do a test fit, feel for where some material needs to be removed, drop the rail onto a bench hook, and take a swipe or two with a plane, adjusting my pressure to preferentially remove material from wherever the fit is tightest, and retry the fit. Usually one or two passes, at most two refit attempts, are sufficient for a fit that I can just manage to force together and pull apart again without persuasion with a mallet, depending on how good my sawing technique happens to be that particular day.

Routers are designed for fitting things like hinge, lock and striker plate mortises and for flattening the bottoms of recesses for inlays.

Re: Why not a router plane?

Patrick Gibbons, Space City, TX

>You don't need the scrap piece of wood for the router. Just hold it firmly on the board with one hand and move the other handle in an arcing motion to trim the cheek.

Re: Why not a router plane?

Ian in Sydney

>2" not much of a problem

now a 6" long tennon would be.

Re: Why not a router plane?

paul womack

>With a #71 at 7 1/2" wide, tenons up to half that (around 3 1/2") are no problem.

If you wish to adres even larger tenons, the counter sunk screw holes in the router casting are provided to allow the attachment of wooden extension soles.

BugBear

David Charlesworth must be one to

Ian in Sydney

>I mill rails slightly longer than I need and the off-cut becomes the "piece of scrap" on which to rest the other side of the router.

The real problem is having a FLAT surface on which to place the rail and off-cut.

Re: David Charlesworth must be one to

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Please excuse my tongue-in-cheek snip at using an engineering aproach to the problem. I have an engineering degree. I also am not saying that you should never use a router for this task, but I think it has some serious disadvantages in time and quality of cut when compared to a #10 or a #60 1/2R or #140 or #78 or even against a #073 plane.

You need more that a flat surface to work on. You also need the back surface of the rail and the cutoff to be flat and to be very precisely milled to thickness.

How do you hold both the rail and the cutoff firmly in place on the flat surface while riding the router over both of them? It seems that one piece or the other would tend to follow the bottom of the router across the bench top. OTOH, holding the rail in a bench hook with one hand, still gives you one free hand to push a plane.

Re: chisel? Cutting action?

Henry (Raleigh, NC)

>OK so maybe, as others have mentioned, I need to work on my chisel technique. Let me restate that: I know I do, but need some guidance! I have a bunch of great books (including Tage Frid's) but never thought to look up answers to this Q.

Whenever I have tried cheek trimming with a chisel I end up with poor fit because I get splintering, tearout (as I think Pam also mentioned) .... and generally a mess. I have primarily been using oak, but more recently other hardwoods. I have tried to trim by cutting into the end grain of the tenon. Should I be cutting across the cheek to trim it? Start at the shoulder, or the end of the tenon? Chisel wide enough to cut across the whole tenon?

Thanks

Henry