Dovetail Chisels Revisited, longish

Here some info... *LINK*

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Dovetail chisels have a triangular cross section for getting into corners. There are American makers (Barr chisels are available in a DT pattern, but a bit pricey).

I use Japanese DT, the ones from The Japan Woodworker. There really no learning curve with these. It's just that they don't like being pried on, or really wailing on them with a hammer. BTW my widest one is 12mm. I find you really don't need any one wider because you can get into the corners with regular ol' beveled edge chisels.

You can always use skewed chisels to get into those pesky corners in half blind DT and small thru DT too.

I have had problems with chipping them but sharpening to a slightly steeper angle has resolved this problem. Also I rarely use a hammer on my DT chisels and never on the thin ones.

If I were to do it again, I'd get these...


Masashige DT chisels

Re: Dovetail Chisels Revisited, longish

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Bevel edge chisels work just fine for dovetails IMO. As for a chisel for 1/2 blind there's been lots of talk on how simple it is to grind one up like Rob Cosman uses.

Some thoughts (longish)

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Sanford,

Instead of the typology of chisels (sets, styles), you might think about the exact operations you do with a chisel when you make dovetails. It sounds like you've already had enough practice to know what size pins you like to use; and whether you like to chop the waste and then pare, or whether you like to saw the waste and then pare; and whether you use lapped (half blind) dovetails. If you know these things, you already know a lot about what chisels you need.

For example, I saw the waste, make one chop to get close (if I didn't saw quite close enough), and then pare. That's on through dovetails. Mostly I use smaller widths. My most-used chisels for dovetails are 4.5mm and 6mm. The third most used is a 7.5mm. These are Japanese slicks. These sizes are mostly a function of the size pins I end up with--the final paring cut in the pin socket on the tails board will almost always be one cut with either a 4.5mm or a 6mm slick (paring chisel). For making the wider paring cuts on the pins board, I still prefer a fairly narrow chisel--always 12mm or less. Cause I find it difficult to make an accurate paring cut with a wide chisel. Now this is me--not you. But my point is that, knowing what I know now about how I work, I would buy 4.5mm, 6mm, and 7.5mm chisels as the first three dovetail chisels. You could do the same analysis of your work patterns, and figure out what widths you need.

Now I ask Imai-san to put a 7 degree bevel on either edge of these slicks, and he does it without complaint, but I'm sure he has wondered why in the hell I'm so lazy I don't do it myself. You could take any bevel edge chisel and if you find you need it, get out a 220g stone (or whatever) and put a slight bevel on the outer edge.

I also don't want to pare with a ringed chisel. At least, not a Japanese ringed one--they cut my palms. And you gotta pare, right?

On half blinds, how do you get started? On the pins board (drawer front) I like to make my half saw cuts to define the sockets, then go to the drill press, put in a 1/4" to 3/8" Forstner bit, and gnaw all the lateral support out of the middle of the sockets. This is end grain, so then you put the board vertical in a vise, and you can take any chisel--I tend to use a 1/4" mortise--and knock out a whole bunch of the blocky wood that's left. For the corners, I have skews, but instead of swapping chisels a lot, I find it easier to pick up a 1/8" chisel and just dig out the corners. Your mileage may vary--but again, the point is that this is not so much about sets and styles, as it is about how you do the work.

If you find that you use mostly smaller widths, you might want to go with the Two Cherries, where there's a chisel every millimeter. I don't have the LN's but have been very impressed by testimonials--but for me, I would want more smaller sizes than are currently offered. YMMV. My experience with Japanese chisels is quite different than what I read from others. I don't find them delicate at all. Well, I can't argue with the experience of others, and won't, but I would suggest that in your situation, a knowledgeable, honest vendor will end up saving you quite a bit of money and aggravation. Joel comes to mind immediately. But first, figure out what sizes of chisel you actually use, and also how you propose to remove the waste.

Wiley

Re: Dovetail Chisels Revisited, longish

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I don't own any dovetail chisels and I cut dovetails alot. Any bevel edge chisels will work.Get a couple sizes and start playing. You'll figure out what you need.---Jack

Re: Dovetail Chisels Revisited, longish

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I seems that you are asking the seven blind men what the elephant really looks like, one more time again.

The issues involved in dovetailing include:

1) steel hardness, toughness, and bevel angle

2) profile

3) length, weight, balance

4) handle impact resistance

42) And then, of course, there is cost and versatility for other tasks.

one: The edges of harder steels tend to chip. The edges of tougher steels tend to roll over. In either case, you need to resharpen more often. Increasing the bevel angle decreases both tendencies and means you have to resharpen more often, but then you have to hit them harder and more often to penetrate the wood. Every time you resharpen them, you control the bevel angle for the wood you use. The choice of steel, and the care in its hardening, you will have to trust to the manufacturer.

two: Triangular is advantageous for getting into the corners of perfect dovetails, but wood compresses, structural soundness does not depend on imperceptiblility of surface imperfections, and you can always work at a bit of an angle to get perfect through dovetails. I've reground otherwise superfluous bench chisels to optimize them for cleaning the invisible inside corners of half blind dovetails. It doesn't help their edge holding ability. It doesn't help the strength of the dovetail. It does make them less useful for other tasks, where a precise chisel width is critical. Mortise chisels and firmer chisels are inappropriate. Most bench chisels and paring chisels, especially recently manufactured, mass produced ones, don't have any appreciation whatsoever for why they are putting a bevel on the front of the chisel. Somehow it is just the thing that is done to make them look right, like the tail fins from Detroit in the late '50s. For some strange reason, they don't work any better than mortise chisels for dovetailing. These same manufacturers, BTW, don't have any appreciation for the shape of mortise chisels. They don't understand that mortise chisels also require a bevel to work right.

three: you can't chop and pare dovetails for a whole chest full of drawers if the balance is wrong, e.g., if your handle weighs more than your blade, because your wrist and the muscles in your arm get exhaused trying to keep the thing vertical while chopping, and while rotating it between vertical and horizontal while working on the 4 different faces to form half blind sockets. Longer is better for paring, but not for forming dovetails. This leads directly to�

four: If you try to make up for cheap, frail wood by adding several ounces of metal striking ring to the end of the handle, you will eventually pay your surgeon, probably at at least 1000:1, for your frugality. You will also damage your mallet.

fortytwo: a set of extremely competent chisels, optimized for dovetailing, and still serously considering and addressing the other tasks a cabinetmaker may ask bench chisels to perform, can still be obtained, without risk of failures of quality control, and even built by Yankees for Yankees.

If you want to make quality dovetails, and "paying the dues to sing the blues" is not on your agenda, the L-N bench chisels will serve you well. Their steel, profile, balance, handle, quality, customer service and value have been optimized for 21st Century cabinetmaking.

LN Revisited

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Just revisited the Lie Nielsen site, and noticed that they will soon be offering 3/16", 5/16", and 7/16" widths. That really covers the bases, and reinforces Mr. Duffield's recommendation for LN chisels.

Wiley

And........

Manny

>5/8" and they are already available. ;-)

Re: Dovetail Chisels Revisited, longish

Ross Canant

>Of course, you could also get on Ebay and pickup 2 or 3 Stanley 750 chisels for a fraction of the cost. They are the ones LN copied.

Another vote for japanese *LINK*

Todd from San Jose

>I'll second Scott's suggestion for the japanese chisels. I use Matsumura bench chisels for dovetails, but did grind the sides to better get in the corners of dovetails. If I were to do it over again, I'd consider either the ones Scott suggests, or the Matsumura version.

Regarding whether to go western or japanese, that is like arguing religion. But I will tell you that, with all my heart, I am a huge worshipper of japanese steel ;-) . I owned Marples for a couple of years, and they worked just fine for soft woods and mahogany, but they were useless on hardwoods such as black walnut. After doing lots of research, I chose the Matsumuras (rated #1 by FWW), and have been amazed at the edge they hold. I have not had any issues with chipping, and I wale on them with a mallet when I dovetail. Their Rc64 hardness and forged grain structure is the key. They have excellent balance, unlike the long, handle-heavy Marples. If you plan on working hardwoods and don't want to spend all your time sharpening, make sure and get a quality set like the Matsumuras or perhaps the Lie Neilsens. I went for white steel for all but my widest chisel, which is blue steel. White steel is supposed to resist chipping, but I haven't had any issues with either type.

To get into the bottom corners of half-blind dovetails, I also really like skew chisels. I bought a pair of 1/8" japanese skew chisels (one left skew, one right). They're somewhere on the Japan Woodworker site, hard to find though.

Anyhow, here's a link to the Matsumura dovetail chisels...


Matsumura dovetail chisels

Re: Another vote for japanese

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Add my vote, too, although I only have shinoji in paring chisels. For chopping, most anything handy will do, which in my case is Two Cherries or Japanese. Note on the Tasai dovetail chisels that JWW is selling: the extreme cost is because these are mokume, which is a beautiful forging technique but doesn't add anything functional. Check out Hiraide for somewhat more reasonable Tasai dovetails.

Are the skews you use the ones shown under Special Dovetail Chisels? They are 3/8" vs 1/8" (btw, when did the Japanese start making tools in inches?) and come in curved and skewed, very interesting.

Pam

Manny, can you share some thoughts

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>on your experience with the LN chisels. I read somewhere that you were doing a long-term evaluation of them--if I have this wrong, please straighten me out, and I sincerely apologize. Since you're best known as a Japanese tool user, your remarks on the LN chisels would be of particular interest.

Thanks for whatever you can share,

Wiley

Re: Dovetail Chisels Revisited, longish

Sanford Levy

>Thanks for all the helpeveryone. A lot to think about but enough to make a decision I think. Sanford

Re: Another vote for japanese

Rick Hoppe (Los Angeles)

>Hi Todd,

I�ve just acquired some Matsumura bench chisels. Seeing as how you've had excellent success with them, I am curious as to what sharpening angle you�ve chosen and what your sharpening method is.

Rick

Re: Another vote for japanese

John Kissel (Awosting, N.J.)

>Hi,

My experience with Japanese chisels has also been very positive. Good quality ones are able to take and hold a very keen edge. They also stand up to serious use and abuse. I have some bench chisels that have bevel angles somewhere around 30+ degrees. I have been able to hit them hard with a steel hammer and then use them for paring without a problem in woods ranging from Walnut to Ebony. The key thing with dovetails is having the sides ground to the correct angle so they don't dig in as you're shaping the tails. Some smiths will do this as a special request and some dealers carry them with the sides already ground that way. Then of course you can always shape them yourself.

Even though you can use the bench chisels for hammering and paring there is a strong argument for getting a few Japanese paring chisels. As Wiley pointed out, the mushroomed end of the bench chisels can be a little rough on the palms. The longer handles of the paring chisels are also nice for better balance and control. That being said, I have found that for myself I enjoy using mini chisels (about 6" long) for working on DT's, at least on smaller ones common to box or small drawer construction. They feel very nice in the hand and you can get into tight spaces easily. Paring chisels are normally used with a finer bevel, maybe around 23 - 27 degrees. I'm not sure about my mini chisels as I've never measured them.

Regarding smiths, any of the reputable specialty dealers (Hida, Hireade, JWW, Misugi) can point you in the right direction. It might be best to stay away from the least expensive but you certainly don't need to break the bank either. Just take a close look at the symmetry of the shape and forging as an initial evaluation. The rest will come out in use.

One final thought... You can use a good sharp chisel for many woodworking tasks. Things that might not first seems possible are within reach as long as you have a keen edge.

JK

Re: Another vote for japanese

Todd from San Jose

>Hi Pam,

I can't find the skew chisels online, and I remember they were in an obscure place in their catalog too. I'll see if I can find them.

They are 1/8", or 3mm :-)

They are your typical skew chisel- basically a japanese dovetail chisel with a skew angle at the edge. They were pricey at around $52 each, but are of nice quality.

-Todd

Re: Another vote for japanese

Todd from San Jose

>Hi Rick,

I ground them just a little steeper than stock, I think around 29 degrees if memory serves.

As far as sharpening, I've been doing it the old fashioned way, with japanese waterstones up to 8000 grit. The backs were surprisingly easy to flatten, thanks to the hollowed out backs. I've been using a LV sharpening jig, but plan on losing those training wheels soon and will sharpen free-hand on the waterstones. Mine are japanese waterstones, but used a set of Nortons that I really liked- I may buy a set someday. They cut fast and stay flat longer, it seems to me.

I just received a Tormek, which I can't wait to try out. My hope is that the hollow grind from the Tormek will give me enough stability for freehanding that I'll finally put my sharpening jig in a drawer. I'll use this for the heavy work, knives and gouges, but I'll probably stick with the waterstones for typical sharpening.

-Todd

Re: Another vote for japanese

Rick Hoppe (Los Angeles)

>Hi Todd,

I�m currently using the Shapton waterstones (1000, 5000 & 8000) but I have tried the Nortons and they are excellent.

I�ve experimented a bit with hand sharpening but, I�ve had a bit of trouble. Because the steel at the back end of the bevel is much softer than the steel at the edge, it wears more quickly. So I start out with a 30 degree grind, then end up with a bevel more like 27 degrees by the time I�m done honing. I�m not happy with the way these chisels fit, or don�t fit, in the Veritas guide. I just might end up using the Kell guide which is made for Japanese chisels.

I�ll be interested in hearing how the Tormek turns out for you and how any hand sharpening experiments go.

Rick

Re: Another vote for japanese

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>If you go to the page you linked and choose "Special..." you'll see 4 skewed chisels, 2 bent, 2 straight; but they are 3/8" (9.5 mm) and more than $52 (probably proportional to size). Very interesting.

Pam

Re: Manny, can you share some thoughts

Manny

>Sure. I don't remember when I got the bench chisels, but it's probably been around a year now. I've had the 1/2" mortise chisel since April or May of last year. Got the rest of the mortise chisels a few months ago. So, I've had some time to beat them up.

In a nutshell I think they are a bargain at $50 each. I've been a Japanese tool user for a long time. But, when I first picked up one of the LNs it felt "just right" in my hand. Something about the balance and feel was what got my attention. This was a few years ago when I was in Maine taking a class at Peter Korn's school. Brian Boggs was teaching a chair making class next door and he had two prototypes. Each was a different design. One was socket and one was tang, I think. Anyway, I've been using them as my main chisels since last year. When comparing them to the Japanese chisels I've owned over the years I can only say that you would have to spend $100+ on a japanese chisel to get as good as or better results. I hate to make that statement because I don't want anyone to interpret that as saying any Japanese chisel at $100+ is a good chisel. You and I both know of at least one brand that's been discussed on the Japanese tool forums that is priced in that range but isn't up to par in the edge holding deptartment.

I noticed some improvements on the new LN sizes I just recieved. (1) the bevel now comes at 30-31 degrees. The first sets came with a bevel of 25 degrees (2) the beveled edges (sides) are ground down closer to the back. Similar to some of the shinogi style Japanese chisels. I'm not sure if #2 is intentional or maybe just how the machine was setup that day. I'll have to ask Thomas.

Here are some of my thoughts and comments:

-Comparable to $100+ Japanese chisels, but not quite up to the level of Tasai and Imai which cost a lot more than the $50 LNs

-Balance and feel only surpassed by my Ichihiro and Hisasaku chisels. Both in even a higher price range than Tasai and Imai.

-Hold an edge really well. I take notice of how often I go to the sharpening bench during the course of a project.

-If you intend on using the bench chisels for mortising or buy the mortise chisels I recommend the hornbeam over the rosewood. The hornbeam is virtually indestructible. I've pounded on the mortise chisels with a 20 oz metal hammer. The hornbeam doesn't split, crack or fall apart.

-Because of the bevel edge on the bench chisel I can use them for cleaning joint corners and general paring without switching to another type of chisel. It should be even better now that the sides are being ground down close to the back.

-The LN bench chisels are a good all around chisel. I can think of some projects where I only used these chisels. I chopped mortises, pared and did general cleanup with them.

Sorry if my evaluation is too general. I stopped trying to apply scientific methods and procedures when testing/evaluating my tools. Found I was spending more time fiddling with them than doing woodworking. Going from project to project you get to know how the tools work and feel. You notice things like how many times you visit your sharpening stones, how long before they start to feel dull, how well balanced they feel, etc. I can honestly say that the LN bench and mortise chisels rank pretty high up there in my shop. I think they are a bargain for the performance they provide me.

Re: LN chisels

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Manny, someone emailed me this week asking about Japanese chisels, white and blue steel, etc. The reason is that this person (I'm not being coy here, I just don't know how s/he would feel about going public here) can't seem to get the LN's sufficiently sharp. They do hold an edge, but it's not a sharp one. So, s/he is moving to Japanese chisels.

I don't have experience with LN's, so can't confirm or deny; but have you noticed any problems with getting to sharp?

Pam

Re: LN chisels

Manny

>In general I can get a pretty darn good edge with them. Even with a 30 degree bevel. As we both know the term "sufficiently sharp" is subjective. I can pare cleanly on end grain. I also judge by how much pressure and effort goes into pushing and hammering. Also how cleanly the fibers are cut.

If someone is consistent with their sharpening method of choice then I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to get a keen edge on the LNs.

Something I forgot mention in my other post is that the LNs are the closest "ready to use out of the box" than any other chisel I've owned. The backs are flat and so is the bevel. That means I didn't have to waste time preparing them the first time I used them. The edge wasn't as refined as they are now after many sharpenings, but it was sufficient enough to not worry about it and get some work done.

Re: Dovetail Chisels Revisited, longish

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Because the Lie-Nielsen design is "based on the Stanley 750 bevel edge socket chisels" does not mean it is just a "copy of" the Stanley. The L-Ns are significantly improved in every detail I can think of. If you compare them, one-on-one, while holding them in your hand, I think you will find, as I did, that the fit and finish, precision machining of the bevels, and especially the balance and comfort in use of the Lie-Nielsens is superior. I haven't done a one-on-one comparison of edge holding or honing performance, as a representative sample of unabused 750s is a bit difficult to come by, so someone else will have to do that.

The price of a fine quality #750, if you can find one, no rust, no pitting, no cracks in the handle, handle finish intact is about the same as a mint in box L-N.

Re: LN chisels

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Thanks, Manny. How do you sharpen the LN's? Waterstones?

Pam

Re: LN chisels

Manny

>Shaptons. They cut the A2 really fast. I also have a natural Suita that I bought from Mori-san a few years ago. It works well with the LNs for final honing. But, I just stick with the Shaptons.