Planning my bench, curmudgeon style.

Re: Planning my bench, curmudgeon style.

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Ok Adam, I'm taking your advice: I'm planning a Roubo of sorts, and would appreciate comments on my thoughts here, from you and everyone else.

Glad I�ve snookered, er, I mean, helped elucidate the sense of this bench. Know that I haven't built one of these benches. I use one at Pennsbury Manor. My bench is a bit more European in nature and I don't like it so very much that I routinely rant on the subject. All this is to say there are others here who have built this bench and hopefully will reply as well.

Otherwise I have a few comments (as usual):

And no, it won't have a Shaker vanity under it.

I think you should reconsider. Home Depot has vanities in cherrywood tone TM on sale this week! Just think of all the tools you could store/never seen again in that dark flakeboard box under your bench! Oh right. Maybe your wife could put some pretty plastic shelf paper in there to brighten it up.

Because I'm going with white pine, I think I need a little extra mass in the top - so I was planning on 2x6's? 20 of them, glued up for thirty inches wide. It's about $60 dollars more to go from 2x4 to 2x6's - is this just totally overkill?

I think that�s overkill, and I can foresee a few problems;

1) You don�t need a 6� thick bench. I think 4x4�s are a better product and would be easier for you to work with.

2) 12 foot 2 by stock is gonna get squirrely on you. It�ll be tough to find straight stock, and the bench top may twang on you after you release the clamps.

So here�s my advice:

-Consider switching to all 4x4�s (top, legs, everything) and consider 10 footers if the 12�s are too twisted. If the 12�s look good, go for it. Be very choosy when selecting your stock and I�d let it sit awhile before gluing.

-Consider adding a 1" maple strip to the front for wear.

-Don�t worry about the weight. The top needs to be stiff enough to not flex appreciably while planing. If you find your bench is sliding on you, you can always add a bathroom vanity under it to weigh it down. You could fit a lot of routers in something like that.

I can't afford to pay for custom hold downs and a toothed planing stop - for $6 dollars, will the Vertias stop suffice? And if I'm going to purchase hold downs, who makes some good ones - Garrett-Wade, Highland Hardware?

I like the look of the LV stop. You could also make your own if money is tight. I prefer forged holdfasts. Mine are Jorgensens from Highland Hardware, Our own Chad Boelhke makes nice hand forged ones.

I think I need a marking/ morticing gauge of sorts, a morticing chisel, a block plane, a rabbeting plane - is there anything major I'm missing?

You don�t need a mortising gauge or a mortising chisel for this project. Neither will you need a block plane or a rabbet, though all are nice to have.

You will need some way to bore holes. I recommend finding either a tee handled auger or auger bits for a brace. Also invest in an auger bit file and a copy of Dunbar�s �Restoring, Tuning and Using...� book. Make sure your bits are razor sharp. You�ll need nice wide chisels, a 1� and something bigger to pare the sides. (This is carpentry, not cabinetry). I�d use through joinery everywhere and try to saw as many of your joints before you glue up the bench top as you can.

Don�t forget the sliding board jack and the crochet or similar for edge work. I�d also very seriously consider plunking down the cash and buying 2, 2� wood screws and nuts for a twin screw vise. Center it on the back (rhs) leg.

You probably won�t need to peg the top to the legs. Leaving those joints unpegged will let you move this bear or make revisions later. Speaking of which, even if you haven�t the inclination at present, you may want to build in provisions for the vise I�m talking about. In the days of yore, they just dug channels into the bottom of the bench for the screws. This is okay, but a nice straight 2� dia hole would be better/stiffer/stronger (make sure the hole�s not too tight for the screw).

I guess I�d start there. I glued up my bench then bored the holes and that was a heck of a job. The tool I used was a ship auger and they don�t grow on trees.

Good luck with the bench. Any time you spend planning and thinking will pay for itself about 100 times over.

Adam

Re: Planning my bench, curmudgeon style.

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>30" may be a bit wide - that width was my first impulse when I started out, too, but you can't much use a bench wider than you can reach across. Stand six inches away from your kitchen counters, pretend your stomach is up against an edge, and try reaching the back of the kitchen counter (this assumes you've got conventional 24" deep kitchen counters). If you can comfortably reach it, call any NBA scout and invite them over for a little pickup game of basketball.

There've been some articles in Popular Woodworking and other mags lately on building softwood benches, so you're not alone. My grandfather's bench, on which he successfully built quite a bit of furniture, was made of 2x12 Douglas fir set flat; it's very rough, looks like it was used for dunnage in a mail order house for Hell's Angels accessories.

Tools: you can see how much you can make with what you've got before deciding what you need. A marking gauge is quite useful, although there are other ways to accomplish it that aren't quite as easy. Block planes are so useful you should buy one soon. Your choices here seem to be older Stanley at a garage sale (cheapest, most work), Lee Valley (mid-price though not cheap; a lot of people really like them, some equally with Lie-Nielson), or Lie-Nielson (expensive but apparently lustworthy; I've been afraid to touch one for fear of losing my grip). If you're going to do mortises, a mortise chisel is probably advisable, although a lot of people do the drilling-and-paring thing quite successfully; size here depends on the size of your stock. Rabbet planes are useful but not necessarily essential yet; test the limits of what you have first.

Re: Planning my bench, curmudgeon style.

Steve Kubien

>Hi Dave,

I like the way you are going with your bench, especially using softwood for the top. I used regular construction-grade 2x4's for my bench (4x4's for the legs) and in this regard, I couldn't be happier. Other than mass, tradition and looks (subject to opinion of course), I cannot see building a bench out of hardwood. If maple, beech or similar is available cheap then I understand. A lack of mass in a softwood bench can be overcome with sand bags if need be.

In response to what Adam said, the only readily available softwood 4x4's around here are 'jack' pine pressure treated timbers. These suckers usually have a really high moisture content and split like a fiend while they dry out. I would avoid them for this reason and make your top out of 2x4's standing on edge and glued to form your top. That's what I did on my Frid style bench and it is a nice solid surface. When I go about building a roubo-style bench sometime this year, I will not hesitate to do the same.

Have fun and be sure to post pictures.

Cheers,

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ontario

Re: Planning my bench, curmudgeon style.

Patrick Gibbons, Speaker of Texan

>Dave, I would suggest yellow pine instead of white. Here in Texas I can get 4x4 douglas fir fairly easily but I understand that the further east one goes the harder it is to find. I made my base out of 4x4 doug fir that I got from the borg. They were 8 feet lengths and had very many growth rings/inch with almost no knots. Since then they have had what appears to be much faster growing wood and nothing as fine as I was able to get from them. We both live in the great Southern Pine Forest and yellow pine is readily available. Let it sit in your shop for two weeks to a month before milling. You might also find some inexpensive white oak which is probably an ideal wood for a top. My next bench will probably be made with SYP for the base and white oak for the top for two reasons. First, they work for the purpose and second, they are the woods that my anscestors would have used living here in the past. These are our native trees and as such give me some pleasure in knowing that.

Yellow pine, the other white meat *LINK*

Christopher Schwarz

>David,

You might want to seriously consider yellow pine instead of white �- you're in yellow pine country, after all. I've found it to be much heavier and clearer than the white stuff.

I've built six or seven benches using the stuff, and here is my advice on materials: Avoid the 2 x 4s and good luck finding decent 4 x 4s. The 2 x 4 material is generally the knottiest and most twisted. The 4 x 4 stuff is rarely found in anything better than #2. I've found that the longer and wider the material, the clearer and straighter it is. When I buy a bench I make it out of 2 x 10s or 2 x 12s.

I rip it down on my table saw or band saw to make the top and legs � the legs are two pieces laminated together. This also assist you in cutting through-mortises before you laminate the legs.

Yellow pine should be common where you live. If you have trouble, follow the link below and it will get you where you need to go.

Good luck.

Chris


Find yellow pine

SYP

Jim Reed @Tallahassee

>Not a bad idea as syp is dense and tough. For a 12' bench, I would use 8' stock. It is usually cheaper and is a better grade. Just cut a few in half and alternate the starting point on every other board. Good luck on your bench.

marking guages...

Jonathan Kaplan (OR)

>I have an inexpensive Japanese marking/morticing guage, and a Lee Valley marking guage, and they are both quite nice.

BUT they are both useless whenever I find myself wanting to mark a line parallel to the side of a wide board (where wide here means more than 6" or so!).

So I've thrown together a bunch of marking guages for the task at hand. A peice of hardwood, a dowel, a not-so-carefully filed nail, and a nut & bolt and I've got a working guage. (For one-off projects, I sometimes leave off the nut and bolt and make it a hard-to-adjust wedged guage of sorts...)

If I was making one to use for everything, I'd spend a little more time filing the nail into a nice, short, single-edged knife-shape, and I'd use something nicer than an ordinary hex bolt to secure it, but the same basic idea would work. And it's (essentially) free...

You could do the same thing to make a mortice guage, following the Japanese pattern, using two strips of wood rather than dowels...

Just a suggestion!

The bench, btw, sounds like it will be awesome.

Good luck!

jk

Re: Planning my bench, curmudgeon style.

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Thanks for the comments Adam - I'll look into that bright contact paper, sounds perfect.

4x4's would be great, but as another poster below said, I can't get anything but PT stuff around here, so two by stock is all I can get. I'm still waffling about 2x4 or 2x6, because the 2x6's are only 5 1/2 to start, and after flattening it will probably be about 5" - thick, but seems like that would be better than the 3" or so I would net from 2x4's. But, it will depend mostly on what the stuff looks like in the Borg.

Where can I find 2" threaded screws? I like that idea. But, I was also thinking, could the holdfasts be used in a similair fashion? Use the same kind of hole placement, into the face of the bench, but a 3/4 hole, that I could drive two holdfast into - would this clamp a board vertically for sawing dovetails?

Thanks,

David

Re: Planning my bench, curmudgeon style.

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Thanks Bill - I'll have to look at the width of my top. I knew 30" was larger than most, but I've got plenty of room for the width, so I'll have to see how long my arms are. :o)

And I think you're right about the tools. I'm in no major hurry to get all this stuff together, but considering I had almsot nothing by way of neanderthal tools a few months ago, it's taken some time to just get down a few of the basics.

Thanks again,

David

Re: Planning my bench, curmudgeon style.

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>I think I agree Steve - though a Roubo with on massive solid peice of timber is rather admirable, but as you said, not really any more functional than glued up softwood.

I'll be sure to keep this up with pics, whenever I can get started.

Thanks,

David

Re: Planning my bench, curmudgeon style.

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Patrick, you're right, DF isn't available here - I should say, available reasonable; I can buy it, it'll just cost me ought the nose. YP is more expensive, but I'll have to alteast check the prices.

White oak would be great, but I really have no options here for cheap lumber, other than the borgs - the sawmills are disapearing very quickly around here. The one local guy, who had a 54" Meadows circle sawmill, just left six months ago... Besides that, atleast the Borg stuff is dry (though I realize I'll have to let it acclimate to my shop.)

Thanks,

David

Re: Yellow pine, the other white meat

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Thanks Chris - I'll have to compare prices on the YP. I just assumed it was a good bit more expensive, but I've yet to confirm that.

Thanks for the comments, and the link.

David

Re: marking guages...

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Thanks Jonathan - the idea of making tools appeals to me: for one, it's cheap! But I enjoy it as well - the marking knife and marking awl I mentioned are ones that I made. I'll have to post pics soon. I used an old sawzall blade for the knife, and an old motor housing bolt for the awl - and some wild burled hickory I had a few peices of.

Thanks,

David

Re: Planning my bench, curmudgeon style.

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>There are some advantages to a bench top that is 30" or more wide. I use mine for panel glue-ups, using pipe clamps. It helps a lot to be able to set both ends of the clamp on the bench while you are applying glue and tightening the clamps. Trying to build 2' wide table tops using 3' black pipe will make you wish you had a top at least 32" wide. If you use a separate assembly table for this purpose, you can disregard this advise.

Re: marking guages...

Mike G.

>A couple of scraps of wood nailed or screwed together at right angles to each other at the proper distance also makes a marking gauge for use with a pencil.

Mike G.

Re: marking guages...

paul womack

>...mark a line parallel to the side of a wide board (where wide here means more than 6" or so!).

There's a nice tool called a panel gauge...

Most craftsmen made their own, but the factory made some as well.

BugBear

wooden vises - long (sorry)

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>4x4's would be great, but as another poster below said, I can't get anything but PT stuff around here, so two by stock is all I can get.

Ya know, I never much thought about it, but I guess every area has very different lumber. And see, I�m convinced its not the species, its the sawyer. Fir and pine at Lowe�s and the Home Depot across the street from the Lowe�s differ quite a bit. Whatever you get, sort through the stack and pick straight-grained stuff.

I'm still waffling about 2x4 or 2x6, because the 2x6's are only 5 1/2 to start, and after flattening it will probably be about 5" - thick, but seems like that would be better than the 3" or so I would net from 2x4's. But, it will depend mostly on what the stuff looks like in the Borg.

I agree with that rationale. Choose what looks good. Don�t worry about the thickness of the top so much. 3� is plenty thick.

Where can I find 2" threaded screws?

Howard Card

Crystal Creek Mill Wood Products

P.O. Box 41

DeWitt, NY 13214

(315) 446-1229

I could drive two holdfast into - would this clamp a board vertically for sawing dovetails?

Well...holdfasts really just hold down. You can spin them about their axis. So you�d need a peg in the bench leg to hold the work up, then two holdfasts to hold the work against the face of the bench. You can do this and it would work.

But I still recommend a twin screw for other reasons and operations. I recommend loose jaw,/garterless screws. The heads must be large 1-1/2 to 2 times the shank diameter and they should lie only 1/2" or so from the top of the bench. The only way you can get pressure is by putting your work under those heads or between the screws. Stock placed anywhere else will simply rack the jaws. And this is true for any design, any screw material. Its foolish even to attempt to react this crushing force at some little couple between the jaw and the screw shank, or with some hokey steel bar and bushing. This is why Scandinavian shoulder vises and tail vises are nice. In both cases, you put the work directly behind the screw where the power is. Of course the devil is in the details with those vises.

So higher is better with the screws, but proud is bad. When ordering or making the screws, remember they needn�t be threaded through the thickness of the jaw plus the distance from the front of the bench to the nut. Not having threads in this region is beneficial, so I�d look into that.

Example:

Just in case that wasn�t clear, if you have a 2� thick jaw and the nut sits behind a 2x4-----(I just thought of something) then the screw should/could have an unthreaded portion 3-1/2� long from the bottom of the head to where the threads begin.

Here�s what I thought of. I made my bench thick enough to house the wooden screws entirely. 3� probably isn�t thick enough for a 2� dia screw with a 3-1/2� or 4� head. The center of that hole probably needs to be 2� from the top surface of the bench. A 2� screw would probably need a 2-1/4� � 2-3/8� hole, and that would break out the bottom of the bench.

So you could make a thicker bench or you could screw a plate onto the bottom of your bench. Maybe that would be better anyway. Cut trenches for the vise screws and screw a plate up underneath to restore the stiffness. You want something thick and unidirectional (not plywood or thin sheet metal) 1/2� thick iron plate or a 1� thick piece of maple comes to mind. Use many small screws (like 1 per inch) to transfer the load evenly.

Sorry so long. There�s a lot to think about here.

Adam

P.S. I looked very carefully at the benches in Williamsburg. You might think these are better/simpler, but they're really not. I also had to question their appropriateness in that shop. Although they are simply made of boards and their vises look great, they don't actually function all that well. The front apron prevents the use of hand clamps. The really long one has these strange medial supports under it and its held together with lag screws. They look like a house joiner's bench to me. Light, easy to build and take apart, good for processing long architectural stock. Cabinetmakers need to hold at least some smaller, irregular shaped pieces which has always been a justification for tail vises. All food for thought!

Yup, a panel gauge is what it is!

Jonathan Kaplan (OR)

>Cool, I hadn't know that there was a name for it, other than "really big marking gauge." :)

Best,

jk

Re: wooden vises - long (sorry)

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Doggon' it Adam, every time you open your mouth, I have to start thinkin' all over again! :o) Really though, I appreciate the thoughts, as I have no immeadiate need for this bench, other than my own desire for it. So, planning is good!

I'll have to look into some wooden screws, I like that idea - what would be the pros and cons of putting such a vise on the right end of my bench, with an extra leg centered under the vise - I'm just thinking that this would keep it out of the way for edge jointing on the face of the bench. Though, this would be harder to accomplish - getting holes into end grain...

Thanks.

David

Re: wooden vises - long (sorry)

Adam Cherubini

>Well you could do that somehow or another and it would work okay. I think this is a popular idea- folks are putting veritas twn screws on the right end and using them as tail vises of a sort.

Just forgetting about using a standard jawed vise for a tail vise for a second, I think disadvantages of putting your twin screw on the end as opposed to the side are:

1) Its now in the way of sawing. I like to use a bench hook on the rhs for all manner of cross cut sawing. Any sort of tail vise gets in the way of that.

2) I often put long thin stock in my twin screw and plane (mold/stick) it. You wouldn't be able to do that with the vise on the end.

3) I think its a substantially more difficult integration, but having an end grain back jaw would be nice. It more difficult to install, but would have some structural advantages.

One advantage that immediately comes to mind is dovetailing a large carcass. I cuurently throw a side in the twin screw and cut the dovetails, then put the top or bottom in, lay the side on the bench top, line everything up and mark. If you bench is against a wall (where it belongs) you'll probably not have room for that carcass side. You may have to reverse things and cantilever the side out over the floor.

I think the power of a really big (20" screw to screw) twin screw vise is exactly this sort of carcass work. So another thing to consider.

Along with this whole bench discussion belongs an equally tiring bench technique discussion. I like to think all this has been figured out before and a common sense starting place is an historicial example.

But its almost pointless to compare benches without an in depth discussion of how we use them. I think our friend Bugbear makes this point with some regularity, though he isn't alone. Its worth adding here, since he grew bored with this thread long ago, no doubt. In the end you must build that which suits your specific needs.

If nothing else I help this thread has encouraged whomever is reading to consider the use and optimization of their bench carefully. A well thought out bench is a dream to use, while a poorly designed bench, however beautifully made, is an arch enemy, constantly working against you.

Adam

Re: wooden vises - long (sorry) *LINK*

Alan Bierbaum

>I have some time now; so I will stick my nose in here.

To start off: I respect Adam's opinions and he does more hand tool work than I do. However, there is no "right" or "wrong" bench design. I mixed my comments in with what Adam wrote.

"One advantage that immediately comes to mind is dovetailing a large carcass. I cuurently throw a side in the twin screw and cut the dovetails, then put the top or bottom in, lay the side on the bench top, line everything up and mark. If you bench is against a wall (where it belongs) you'll probably not have room for that carcass side. You may have to reverse things and cantilever the side out over the floor. "

I can work on all sides of my bench. I made it 36" wide to handle furniture/cabinetry assembly as well as working the pieces individually. If it was against the wall; I would lose (what I consider to be) a major advantage.

"I think the power of a really big (20" screw to screw) twin screw vise is exactly this sort of carcass work. So another thing to consider. "

I do this with my face vise.

"Along with this whole bench discussion belongs an equally tiring bench technique discussion. I like to think all this has been figured out before and a common sense starting place is an historicial example.

But its almost pointless to compare benches without an in depth discussion of how we use them. I think our friend Bugbear makes this point with some regularity, though he isn't alone. Its worth adding here, since he grew bored with this thread long ago, no doubt. In the end you must build that which suits your specific needs.

If nothing else I help this thread has encouraged whomever is reading to consider the use and optimization of their bench carefully. A well thought out bench is a dream to use, while a poorly designed bench, however beautifully made, is an arch enemy, constantly working against you. "

It is very important to understand what you want to do with the bench. I worked with several different styles of benches before I build mine. Other than being shorter than I would like (limited space available) it fits my requirements well. I use a mix of hand and powered tools for furniture and high end cabinets. If I did carpentry trim or period furniture; and if I had an separate assembly bench, I might change my mind.

Alan


My bench

Re: wooden vises - long (sorry)

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Thanks Alan, and Adam once again - One old post pointed out that though a bench is really the first tool a woodworker needs, really, a mentor is the greatest asset one could possible have. And, you guys are it! Yeah, it would be a heck of alot easier/better to apprentice with you Adam, or some of you other folks, but this forum is great - I've been pouring through the archives and old bench discussions, and I've learned a ton, with much more to learn.

But thanks to all of you who are trying to help shorten my learning curve!

David - eating, drinking, and dreaming benches, after benches, after...

Re: panel gauge

paul womack

>The design is subtly different; the head is very side, and has a rebate to run on the work.

Jeff Gorman's expertise as usual

BugBear

Re: wooden vises - long (sorry)

Dean J in MN

>David --

I was in the same boat as you a year ago. And I ended up (with much help coming from folks on this board) building what folks seem to call a "French Bench" perhaps with some additions.

The top is a 4 inch thick maple, laminated. I have a twin screw vise on the right front and a wooden hook in the front left. I have round holes on the top for holdfasts, and some little planeing stops that drop into the holes as well (on the front left corner). Add to that a sliding board jack which runs between the bench legs. The legs are flush with the front of the bench, one centered under the twin screw with hole to insert a peg to hold up a board in the vise if needed, the other under the hook with holes to either use a holdfast or a peg to hold the board for edge jointing (the other end rests on the board jack).

It is 8'3" long, 24" wide. I've just gotten it to the point of being able to use it, and so far so good! I know I have more to learn, the bench is so simple yet has a lot to teach me.

I don't see the twin screw getting in the way of edge jointing. Because the bench is pretty long, a lot of my work will just fit between the hook and the vise, if I need to joint a really long piece I take off the vise, which only takes a few moments. Or, if the piece is thin enough, just let it rest on the tops of the screws (with the left side in the hook) and have at it. If I need to joint a long small piece, a sticking board held in place via holdfasts solves that issue.

I will say this, building a bench is not easy. Building a bench like this by hand is really a lot of work. If I don't see another 8' long hunk of hard maple to joint by hand for a while, I'll be happy. :) Aside from the simple scale of the work, thinking about how you work and how a bench will work with your rather than against you is not trivial. How much do you work by hand, I have no jointer/planer, so I need a bench that will support all sorts of planeing operations. Think about operations first, the bench will evolve from that thought process.

Best of luck!

Dean